Episode #16: Overhiring (and Firing)

Interview
Written By Eman Ismail

Self-made millionaire Jordan Gill opens up about her biggest mistake — overhiring for her coaching program.

Jordan tells us how overhiring meant she had to lay off the majority of her employees, how it caused clients to call her reputation into question, and how it led to her shutting down her Done in a Day programme – a programme that brought in 90% of her company’s revenue.

 
 

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  • Eman Ismail: Some business owners love to give me advice—advice I never asked for. It's usually along the lines of, "You should build an agency. You should stop doing all the one-to-one client work you do and instead just hire a bunch of employees so you can hand over the work to them and free up your time." Here's the thing. Number one, I don't like shoulds. Number two, I don't enjoy being told what to do. And number three, I don't want to hire employees. I don't want to build a huge agency a lot of people keep telling me I should build. 

     

    Now, in my 2023 End-of-Year Review episode, you heard me talk about the fact that I'm going to continue my experiment of working closely with a couple of copywriters. That to me sounds like a micro agency. But even that term might be a little bit strong. I'm not bringing in subcontractors because I want to pass off my work to them. I actually love mapping out email strategies for my clients. Instead, I am strategically delegating the parts of my work that I don't enjoy to people who can do it even better than I can. For example, I work with a talented messaging expert called Natasha who does my clients' customer interviews because she is a messaging genius. I want the best people working with and for my clients. Natasha loves doing customer interviews. I don't. It works.

     

    I'm not growing my team simply for the sake of growth. Traditionally, growth has been the definition of business success. It's this idea that hiring more people, moving away from being a one-to-one service provider, or scaling your business is the only way to be successful. In recent years. I feel like we've actually seen the pendulum start to swing the other way. Business owners are challenging this outdated idea that bigger and bigger and bigger is the way to go. Some of us don't want to be bigger. We heard Tarzan Kay in Episode 7 talk about how she dismantled her seven-figure business and fired her entire team in one day because she realised she just couldn't do business like that anymore. We had Jason and Caroline Zook in Episode 11 talk about how they've intentionally built their business so they can hit that enough number instead of chasing arbitrary revenue goals. Matt D’Avella just released a new YouTube video where he tells us he had burned out after hiring 10 employees and a bunch of contractors. He's now let them all go, and his company is just him again. 

     

    Paul Jarvis wrote an entire book on this idea that your business being better doesn't necessarily mean it has to get bigger. On page 9 of Company of One, Paul Jarvis writes, and I quote, "Society has ingrained in us a very particular idea of what success in business looks like. You work as many hours as possible, and when your business starts to do well, you scale everything up in every direction. Anyone who wants to stay small hasn't done well enough to add more to the mix. But what if we challenge this way of thinking in business? Growth, especially blind growth, isn't the best solution to any problem a business might face, and going further, growing your business might actually be the worst decision that you could make for the longevity of your business. A company of one questions growth first and then resists if there's a better smarter way forward."

     

    Jordan Gill was given the same advice to scale her business. She was told by her coaches to overhire so she could prepare for the influx of sales that was coming her way. But those projected sales didn't come, which meant Jordan was left with a bloated team upset clients, and a coaching programme that just wasn't working anymore. It was at that point that Jordan, like so many other successful entrepreneurs, decided to dismantle and descale her seven-figure empire.

     

    Jordan Gill: In that moment, after that call, I cried for I don't even know how long. And I'm not necessarily a big crier, but when things really affect me, I do. And that was a moment that I just was so broken, because it's like, I have built this to such a big stage, and yet, this happened under my watch.

     

    Eman Ismail: On today's show, I'm speaking to Jordan Gill, self-made millionaire, business strategist, and founder of Systems Saved Me, about how overhiring in her business meant she had to layoff the majority of her employees, and how overhiring caused clients to call her reputation into question and ultimately led to Jordan shutting down her Done In A Day programme, a programme that brought in 90% of her company's revenue.

     

    Jordan Gill: I don't think I was equipped in any way shape or form to have employees in my business. I do think I am a great leader. And so, again, there's the shame and whatnot that can creep in around oh my gosh, I'm just a terrible leader. I don't know if I'm a good manager. But I do believe that I'm a good leader.

     

    Eman Ismail: Welcome to Mistakes That Made Me, the podcast that asks extraordinary business owners to share their biggest business mistake so you know what not to do on your road to success. Mistakes That Made Me is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Eman Ismail, and I'm an email strategist and copywriter for online business owners like you at emancopyco.com. I'm a podcast lover, a pizza binger, a proud mama of two, and I have this radical idea that if maybe us business owners were a little less guarded and a lot more open about the mistakes we've made, we could help each other grow a business that brings us more joy and less regret.

     

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    Jordan, I am so excited to have you here. Thank you for being here.

     

    Jordan Gill: Thank you so much for having me. This is a platform I'm really excited, semi-nervous, but I really want to dive into this because I think not a lot of people are talking about it.

     

    Eman Ismail: It's so important, this conversation we're about to have, and I think people are going to learn so much from you. Before we start, I just want to say that you were on my dream wishlist of guests to get on this podcast. I'm talking like back at Season 1, before I even started recording.

     

    Jordan Gill: Wow.

     

    Eman Ismail: Jordan Gill was on my list. And then what happened was I was gonna invite you to be on this season, actually, but before I could, Jordan's team got in touch with me and they pitched you for the show. You pitched to be on the show. And then you told me you actually listened to the show. I was like, okay, this can't get any better. This is amazing. So I'm super excited to have you here.

     

    Jordan Gill: I'm so, so glad to be here.

     

    Eman Ismail: Okay. Let's dive into you. Your business is called Systems Saved Me, and it's all about helping business owners create systems that allow us to enjoy and prioritise life. I feel like there's a story behind that. So what was happening in your life or business that made you choose this as your mission?

     

    Jordan Gill: Totally. So, personally, I struggle with three chronic illnesses. So I have coeliac disease, chronic fatigue, and hypothyroidism. So naturally, I have a lower energetic capacity than most people, meaning that just kind of like everyday tasks or things that most people just do on the daily exhaust my energy much faster than, again, just typical folks. And so systems helped me to still maintain the level of just being a human that I need to be. However, I don't have to actually physically be doing those tasks.

     

    So, in business, naturally, there's so much to do. And I was like, I have a knack for really automating things that are manual for most people, thinking through really intentional ways to still give a high level of service and experience without draining me. And so that's really where I felt like I was going to be best serving people, was through simple, intentional systems, and not having it be an overwhelming subject where it's like, oh gosh, tech, or oh gosh, automation, but having it be something that people actually experience a warmth to your service or to your experience without, again, it having to be a person necessarily doing it.

     

    Eman Ismail: That sounds amazing. Can you give me an example of how systems have saved you, how they've made your life and business easier?

     

    Jordan Gill: Totally. So I'll share my personal and a business one because I think the personal ones that I share are always, I don't know, the funniest maybe. So one thing that irritates me is when batteries are low. I'm a somewhat highly anxious person, and low batteries will throw me off, whether it's computer, whether it's phone, whether it's car battery, it doesn't even matter. But my husband and my bonus son both don't share the same care. [laughs] And so, me, I have a charger for everything in every room and opportunity—car, next to my bed, by the couch, in my office, in my purse, in my backpack. I have at least a charger in some vicinity of me at any given time. And what I found was, is my chargers kept going missing, and it was driving me bonkers. So I created a colour-coordinated system where my chargers are black, my husband's charges are white, and my bonus son's chargers are grey. So I now know if you are using my charger, because it's very obvious. And if you've lost your charger, then I need to go buy more of the grey chargers or whatever the case is. So that's a life system that helps me feel at ease and also calls out the individuals who don't honour my system. [laughs]

     

    Eman Ismail: Oh my gosh, that is truly mind-blowing. So I've heard this have chargers in every room thing before, and I am also that person who I'm generally a little bit on the anxious side. And whenever I see my battery getting lower, it's worrying, because you never know when you're going to need your phone. You never know what's gonna happen. I can't be going around with a dead phone, right? And so I do have charges in multiple places, but like you said, my chargers always disappear. Currently, the one in my car has not worked for the past six months, and it drives me crazy, but I only remember when I get in the car. So every time I'm in the car, I'm like, ugh, this charger doesn't work. But this colour-codedness, this is something I'm gonna have to steal. It's so good.

     

    Jordan Gill: You'll see who the robbers are.

     

    Eman Ismail: Yeah, exactly. I was gonna say, do you drive your husband and bonus son crazy with all the systems at home? Or are they on board?

     

    Jordan Gill: Sometimes they look at me and are just like, okay, that's Jordan. But there are systems that they do appreciate. So the charger one, they're sad because they get caught. But some of the systems are very beneficial to them. So it's give and take, I would say. Yes, give and take. [laughs]

     

    Eman Ismail: Okay, great.

     

    Jordan Gill: And a business system is something that I think everyone should have, which is a calendar scheduler, which I know Eman and I were talking about. I literally have a rule in my business that if somebody wants me to be on their podcast or show up for something and they don't use a calendar scheduler, I will not work with them. And I know that sounds extreme. And I know that sounds harsh. However, there's just been so many times where I've tried to manually understand what's going on. Time zones are hard. And so I only will do things with people when there is a calendar scheduler just because I'm not going to sit here and calculate hours, and then daylight savings and whatever the case is. So please, for the love of all things, no one likes going back and forth with you on times, just send a calendar scheduler, and that way you both can show up prepared and excited.

     

    Eman Ismail: Oh my gosh, it's so true. I have to say that a coach once taught me that—Okay, so I was a baby business owner. So that's why you can't blame me for taking on this advice. They told me that sending a Calendly link or any kind of calendar link to your client is a little bit lazy, that your client wants to see that you have an assistant, that you have this team of people, and your assistant needs to get in contact with them and manually figure out the times because basically your business looks bigger, you look more important when you have an assistant sorting out the times for you.

     

    Jordan Gill: Oh, that's interesting.

     

    Eman Ismail: Yeah, but no, just no though. Just no. I did that for like four months before I was like, this is insane. This is not okay. And I signed up for Calendly, and I have never looked back. I've never looked back. And to be honest, I would probably do the same thing as you, only I think I don't have the guts to say that [laughs], but I want to. I'll complain about it all day and all night, but I might not actually be like, I'm not doing this. I'd just be like, doing the whole thing, like, ugh, why don't you just get a calendar link? I'm totally with you.

     

    Jordan Gill: I know. Yeah. [laughs]

     

    Eman Ismail: Okay. And so in your business, are you teaching—I know you've had programmes and that kind of thing, but are you teaching and other business owners how to create systems for themselves and then also create programme services that have these systems in them for a better client experience? How does this work for the people that you're teaching and working with?

     

    Jordan Gill: Yeah. So systems is a broad topic, right? So that's always been tough for me because even if I just shared one system a day, that would last me decades because you think of routines, you think of regimens, you think of systems, processes, automation. It could branch out really wide. And so areas that I have focused on and built systems for have been usually on the delivery side, up until, I think, around this year, I've really been around the delivery side. And one of the most, I guess, systematic or productised—which is another word people use—version of services is through a VIP day. And it was one way that I worked with clients. So I built out their client management processes—so how do you onboard clients, manage them, and offboard them. And people realise, you're working two or three days a week and having four-day weekends all the time and living your best life, I'm kind of confused. I'm like, well, that's because I have a very productised system, and that is through a VIP day. It's one of the most optimised versions of a service that you can have because you only have a day to get through something, generally between four and six hours, so you have to be efficient.

     

    And so after enough people kept asking me how to build them and do them, I was like, okay, I'm gonna do a group programme around them. It was wonderful, did it for three years, had over 600 clients and three years, was a wild ride, but I would say I usually am all about productisation of or systematising the delivery because most people, I guess, systems-wise, focus on marketing systems, which is where I'm playing now. However, when it comes to delivery, being able to have a groundedness in how you deliver your services can allow you to be creative in the marketing space, because you know how to run the back end really, really smoothly. So I would say most of my almost eight years in business have been on the systematising of services, but I'm playing around in the systematising of marketing now a little bit, just to switch things up, and I like to keep people on their toes. [laughs]

     

    Eman Ismail: Yes, you do. I love it. That makes so much sense to me. And I'm really passionate also about the delivery side and making sure that my clients have an amazing experience with me. And I think so much of that is how can you make this as easy as possible for yourself, for the client, and also still find a way to add your stamp of personality to it. Because I think sometimes people think that systemising things means that it all becomes robotic and super general and lacking personality or flavour, and that is not the case at all, as I've learned. Amazing.

     

    Okay, so I do just want to go back a little bit. You touched on you having three chronic illnesses, and this being one of the reasons that systems are so important to you. What does that look like for you on a day-to-day basis in terms of these chronic illnesses, and how does it impact your business? Because I really want, me, I want to understand and I want people to understand what this experience is like for you.

     

    Jordan Gill: Yeah. Having multiple chronic illnesses is something that impacts me on a daily basis. It impacts what I choose to eat, it impacts my sleep, it impacts how much energy I have, it definitely affects my mood. It impacts me across really every part of just how I live and operate, and systems allow for me to keep and maintain the same level, again, of excellence or high service while my body, my mental state, all that stuff is going up and down. Because if I were to not have systems, my business would be super chaotic. And not because I'm a chaotic person—you just heard me about my chargers—but just because I don't know on any given basis if I'm gonna have a flare-up that day, or if I am going to be extremely tired and brain fog is going to set in or, again, I go to a restaurant and I eat gluten and then that literally throws me off for at least three or four days from stomach, headache, all that stuff. So it's something that really is a daily mental strain on me. And so I am really conscious of it. And because I have to be so conscious of it, I am having to build things around me or bring people around me that can really close the gap a lot of times in between where I'm at mentally or physically or just, again, sleep deprived, whatever, I need something to fill the gap between where I would like to keep my level of excellence and where I may be as a person in any given day.

     

    So I really enjoy helping people who also struggle with chronic illnesses or are caregivers or have something that is kind of pulling on them from an energetic capacity standpoint because looking at me, you wouldn't really know that I have those struggles, because, again, I've built my business pretty well around it anyway. But also, they can't physically see, it's technically called an invisible illness, and so there's probably a lot more people out there who do struggle with it, who either are unaware, or like, again, have been told to just dismiss their symptoms. So it's definitely something that is very front-facing for me on a daily basis, regardless if I talk about it or not. But that's where my systems, and my people, and my team are really, really crucial in closing that gap for me.

     

    Eman Ismail: So as you were talking, I mean, I cannot even imagine, I can't imagine what you experience with those chronic illnesses. I don't have any chronic illnesses. But my experience has been, with a small baby, I've not slept for years. And it feels like I'm ill at this point. Like this morning, I felt physically sick and I didn't do any of the projects that I needed to do this morning because I couldn't function. I needed to go back to sleep. So I did. And then, of course, I'm behind on projects. And now I'm thinking, okay, I know now I probably need to work Saturday night now and make up for the time I didn't have today.

     

    I can be really harsh on myself when I need to listen to my body and just do what my body needs to do. Sometimes that means letting other people down, rescheduling things, telling people that I said I was available for this, but actually, I am now not. I'm sorry, I'm going to need to rearrange. It's very difficult for me. I wonder if you've experienced that in terms of needing to put yourself first letting other people down, and how you are hopefully kind to yourself about that, like, how do you do that?

     

    Jordan Gill: Totally. I try to be as communicative as possible. I don't shy away from the fact that—not to say everybody knows that I have these chronic illnesses, but I definitely don't hide the fact. And so then if a reschedule needs to happen, or something needs to be adjusted, then they already have a sense or a possibility that this could come up. And so then when I say hey, I need to reschedule, here's how we need to do that, then it's not a surprise or shock or anything like that. It's just like, oh, okay. And generally speaking, people are super respectful of it.

     

    And I also just tried to attract really gracious, kind people in my community, and I try to also extend that when things are happening with other people because a lot of times, you can be seen as not taking your business seriously, or being disrespectful to other people's time. That's tough because that's not how I want to be portrayed. And it's about being able to show up in your best self. And so when I am able to frame it that way and say, hey, I'm not going to be able to show up for our best situation today, let me just reschedule, that's actually a gift that I can give them because I don't want to do less than what I know I'm capable of, and that they know that I'm capable of so. So yeah, definitely it's a work in progress for sure. Disappointing people is something that I do not like at all. It doesn't feel good to me. But I've realised that if I'm very upfront about it, and then I'm very communicative on the back end, that it's been pretty smooth sailing, I would say, generally speaking.

     

    Eman Ismail: Good, I'm glad, I'm so glad. And I think I can really appreciate what you just said because I had that realisation once, I think it was for a podcast interview, and I just thought, You know what? I really want to do a good job on this interview and I can't today. I cannot, I don't have it in me. And so, I remember I did say that to that person, like I cannot be the best guest that I could be today, so can we please reschedule because—oh, you know what? I've stopped asking, actually. I say I'm going to need to reschedule so that I can show up better for you. And most people have been super understanding. And like you said, I also try to give that to other people as well because life happens and this is just the nature of dealing with humans, we're all human.

     

    Jordan Gill: Yep. Exactly. So give what you want to be able to receive. 

     

    Eman Ismail: Absolutely. Okay, Jordan, 2023 has been the year of letting go for you.

     

    Jordan Gill: Yes.

     

    Eman Ismail: This has been, in your words, your shedding season. You just had a big closeout sale where you offered 65% off your four best-selling, I repeat, best-selling courses. I need people to understand how huge this is. If you're listening, I need you to understand. Your business has been a seven-figure business. This is not you just closing down small courses. This is huge. Talk us through the process of making a decision like this. What led to it? Give us the inside scoop.

     

    Jordan Gill: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. So, yes, it's been very much a year of shedding. And I think that most people feel more comfortable pivoting or adjusting or tweaking rather than just scrapping and creating a new surface because it's kind of like when you're, you're dating and whatnot, and it's like, oh, I put so much time and effort into this and you don't want to necessarily just see it just go away 'cause that's just a natural inclination. And so what led me to literally removing anything that I could possibly sell, literally just letting it go, a few months before that, I had dealt with a lot of grief—so people passing away in my life. I had dealt with many, many chronic flare-ups. I dealt with a second stint of COVID. Just a lot of things happening in my life.

     

    I also am very upfront about, some of our custody battle situations. Again, I am a stepmother to our son, Colin, and we have him full time and elements around custody are hard. They are emotionally straining. And again, I have low energetic capacity anyway. So when grief, health, custody stuff was all happening at the same time, I definitely took a step back in business in general. I wasn't on social media at all, I didn't post anything, was just kind of resetting.

     

    And so as I was coming back about a month later, I just was trying to find my bearings and be like, okay, I have these offers. How do I do stuff with them again? And it just didn't feel like it fit me anymore for some reason, even though it's all stuff I love to talk about. It's all stuff that is good stuff. It just didn't fit me anymore. So that's when I was like, well, when things don't fit and when it's stopping my innovation, stopping my creativity, it's got to go.

     

    And so I thought I would actually be more sad than I was, which is interesting. When I did the closeout sale, it was really fun and felt really good. And then when it was over, I was just like, all right, that actually was what was necessary. I was expecting myself to regret the decision, but it actually has allowed for way more innovation and creativity and play and fun, which are the things that I'm most looking forward to in 2024. And I think too, when you deal with people passing in your life, you really start to question and reorient what's most important to you because, again, if people are moving on and death is around you, you really think, wow, you don't really know how much time you have. And to be stressing about some of the things I was stressing about, it's like, this is silly almost because I want to create impact. I want to have fun. I want to create smart and kind communities and events, and that's what's most important.

     

    So that's really what led to that closeout sale. And yeah, I'm not looking back. It feels really good. I did put a lot of effort and work into all of the products that I closed out and now I get to start fresh and new and try some different stuff.

     

    Eman Ismail: First of all, I'm so sorry for the losses that you've endured. Second of all, I love that for you. And I was reading one of the emails that you sent out talking about this and talking about letting go, and I actually saved it because I feel like you encapsulated this so well. And I want to read it out, but I don't want to read it out in my voice. So [laughs] could you read it out for us? I copied and pasted it from your email. I put it in the chat for you. And this is complete copy and paste from your own email about this conversation and kind of understanding how you came to this.

     

    Jordan Gill: Totally. Yeah. All right. I felt a true calling to partake in a conversation about anti-hustle this week because the adjustment from halting one group programme to the journey of finding what's next has been a much different path than I expected—one that led to working double the amount I had planned or my body could bear, one that led to many chronic flare-ups for my health, one that led to my husband telling me enough is enough as I shared some truly difficult negative thoughts I was having.

     

    The source of it all was holding on to what my business was for the last three years because it had been all I've known. It's like that relationship that was really good until it wasn't. A lot of times it doesn't happen in one moment, but a collection of small moments that add up to a big decision that had to be made. I'm grateful for what my experience was from 2020 to now. And by me truly releasing the expectations, dreams, and visions I had for my business that grew from that time, well, they no longer serve me. And that is scary AF. But you know what isn't scary? Looking over at my husband, bonus son, and pup watching the Super Mario Bros. movie and knowing this is who I care about most, not outside validation or fame and fortune, but for more of these random weekday nights of quality time—my love language. I really hadn't had a moment to think about what I wanted next from a me perspective in a really long time.

     

    Eman Ismail: That is so beautiful, so beautifully written, so beautifully communicated and expressed. And I can relate to that so much. And I'm sure anybody listening will as well. And I think it's really important to have those moments where you just think, well, what is important to me, what is most important? And I think as a business owner, like you said, it's so easy to just continue on with things because you've already put in the hard work. Turning back around and doing something differently feels impossible. It feels like it's not even an option.

     

    And so, like you said, most people will opt to tweak, pivot, slightly alter instead of doing what maybe we feel like we should or what we want to do deep down, which is just scrap it and start again. But what I really love is that even in this change, even in you closing down these four different courses and programmes, you have still stayed true to your mission at Systems Saved Me.

     

    And I noticed it felt so intentional and I can only imagine how much thought you've put into this because you've now started creating different tools and creating different software, but it all still comes under the mission of Systems Saved Me. And you now describe your business as tools, training, and consulting for building a business that prioritises your life. I love that. I can only imagine how much thought went into that and then that moment of it all just making sense and aligning and it's all the same mission. It's still you doing what you've always done, just in a different way.

     

    Jordan Gill: Yep. Exactly.

     

    Eman Ismail: Amazing. Okay. And also, it's not just the courses that you closed down. You also did a few other things. So your four offers, and so correct me if I'm wrong, but your four offers—Done In A Day, Short Form Subscribers, Soft Sales Masterclass, Revenue Rolodex, you had an Asana-Facebook community that you gave away to a friend to continue on, you gave away your Ready Set Collab community—which was another offer— to a trusted friend who will take care of that, you've let go of your physical office space, and you reduced your software as well to the bare minimum. So this real shedding season.

     

    Jordan Gill: For real. I was not joking. [laughs]

     

    Eman Ismail: It's a lot.

     

    Jordan Gill: Yeah, it is a lot. And I'm one of those people that tries to be very careful about how I share what I'm doing because I know that people then start to think about their businesses that way. You're like, well, do I need to change my software? Do I need to get rid of this stuff? And I never want to share what I'm going through and have that be something that says, and you need to as well. I try to avoid that statement at all costs because that's a very dangerous conversation that, again, we'll get into with my big mistake, but I'm very careful about that and saying, this is what I am doing regardless. Take whatever lessons you want from it, but that doesn't mean that you also need to take this step because I think that's, in our industry, where we can get in trouble.

     

    Eman Ismail: Oh, yes. Okay so let's go from there. Let's get into the reason I invited you on today. Are you ready?

     

    Jordan Gill: Yeah. Yes. I'm so ready. [laughs]

     

    Eman Ismail: Jordan, what is the mistake that made you?

     

    Jordan Gill: The mistake that made me was overhiring based on future projections of my group programme specifically. That was definitely my biggest mistake that made me.

     

    Eman Ismail: Stick around. Don't go anywhere. We'll get right back to this episode after this quick break. 

     

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    Okay, let's go back a few steps. Take me back to the beginning. How did this situation come about? Why were you hiring in the first place? What was going on?

     

    Jordan Gill: Totally. So I started my Done In A Day group coaching programme in March of 2020, literally the weekend in the United States where everything shut down. I was actually in San Diego at the time speaking on a panel for The Copywriter Club with Kira and Rob, and I was on a panel with Prerna and Jasmine Star and just super awesome, amazing people. And literally at that conference, my husband was like, you probably should come home now. And I was like, no, it's fine. And then the world shut down. But thankfully, I made it home in time.

     

    But during that weekend, I was launching Done In A Day. I had a really great launch. 17 people joined my group programme. I had hired my first coach and hired my ops coordinator at the time. So I was anticipating wanting to have that support. Again, I know where my energetic capacity is, so I'm always trying to be proactive with making sure I'm not going to, again, go into a flare-up or have any sort of gap that's larger than I can fill.

     

    So I've launched a few times after that, Done in a Day virtual conferences. So in 2020, revenue was $429,000, most revenue I'd ever had in my business. And then the year of 2021 was a $1.2 million year. So in that year, it was wild, it was fast. It was a lot of momentum. And this is where I think there's a lot of people in our industry that 2021 was like Speedy Gonzales. And I definitely experienced that, which was, again, an interesting experience, again, as somebody who has energetic capacity bumping up against a lot, and I had had a lot of coach turnover in that year where coaches were staying for like three months and then leaving, they were employees, but I then found a couple coaches and a really great systems person at the end of 2021. And also, I was bringing on a sales manager who was coming on and bringing more folks in 'cause, again, it was like firehose. Actually, that September 2021, we had onboarded 79 people into a group coaching programme in five days.

     

    Eman Ismail: Wow.

     

    Jordan Gill: It was a lot—wonderful and a lot. So I was like, okay, we clearly are not slowing down. And I, again, want to make sure my delivery is kept where it needs to be kept. So I then looked to hire, gosh, four or five new coaches and then a programme assistant in January, February of 2022. And so when I was in this hiring phase, I reached out to coaches, mentors that I was working with, and was like, I've had a lot of coach turnover. I don't want that. I want people who are going to stay. I want people who can learn quickly and, again, just want a place to be versus just hopping everywhere. So my coaches and mentors, all of them were saying you need to actually hire two people per position that you want because most likely one of them will fall off or one of them won't be as good.

     

    So, again, I was thinking I really only needed two coaches, but because of that advice, we hired five. Yeah. We hired five. And so that was a lot. I didn't think I needed five. Again, you think about profit margins, you think about all of that stuff, but I was like, okay, maybe I'm not seeing something. They obviously have successful businesses, so let me do this. And these were employees. 

     

    Eman Ismail: Okay. Right. So how big is your team at this point?

     

    Jordan Gill: Oh my gosh. So my team was actually 18. So we had 12 employees and then we had six contractors.

     

    Eman Ismail: Wow. Okay. That's a big team.

     

    Jordan Gill: It was. Yeah. Very big. [laughs]

     

    Eman Ismail: Okay. So at this point, you felt like you needed to hire two coaches, but you are getting advice from people who have more experience than you, that you're looking up to at this point, and they're telling you, no, you need to overhire for these roles because people are going to drop off, people are going to leave, things are gonna happen. So you go ahead and hire five coaches. And these are coaches for your Done In A Day programme, right?

     

    Jordan Gill: Yep. Because, again, we had just had 79 people join. And so there's a coach-to-student ratio that I need to keep, right? So that came to mind. 

     

    Eman Ismail: Yeah. So you're doing this because you want to maintain the high quality of coaching and high-quality experience that your students have been getting. You didn't want that to fall just because there were now more students. You wanted to make sure everyone was seen, everyone was taken care of. Okay. So, I mean, then what happened? How's it going with this team of 18?

     

    Jordan Gill: Yeah. So then we switched a lot of stuff behind the scenes because, again, energetic capacity-wise, up until that point, I mostly had a lot of like one-on-ones or department meetings or things like that. So I'm having to add more department meetings on my plate. Again, we are hiring remote employees. So the thing with that is each state has different requirements. Each state has policies, and they're changing, and you have 30 days to change them and update your processes. And that was all stuff that I wasn't super well-versed in. I did have HR help. I had two people in my HR department. And so they were very helpful. And also, I had to be involved in a lot of the decision-making, phone calls, updates, decision-making of, okay, this one state updated, but do we need to update it for all the other states? I had people in California, New York, Pennsylvania, Florida, Georgia, Texas, Colorado, I don't even know where else. So that was a lot of states to keep up with and—

     

    Eman Ismail: They all have different rules.

     

    Jordan Gill: All different rules, different percentages of taxes, different requirements around retirement, health benefits, you name it, the whole thing.

     

    Eman Ismail: That's a lot. [laughs] That is a lot.

     

    Jordan Gill: Yeah. So that's where I dove into and where it went was probably about—again, February was when all of the hiring happened and everyone was settled in and starting was in February. We have a virtual conference in March. We have a virtual conference every March and September. At the time, the entire team, except for the new people came to Dallas in person, hosted them, had a really great virtual conference. And then we all went back to our remote places. And it started to probably kind of rear its ugly head in May.

     

    So in May, I was starting to see the pattern of a difference in how many people I was seeing join the group programme and how many people in my sales department had said were joining the programme, and how many leads there really were, and all that stuff. So I had pulled back quite a bit because, again, capacity-wise, I only have so much. And normally, I'm very into my numbers. I'm very granular with my data. And I was bringing on people who, again, I felt like were experts in their vicinities. And it felt like I was not being told transparently what was really going on.

     

    And so then in May, the sales numbers weren't adding up to me. What I was being told and what I thought was happening, it all just got messy. And so then in May, I'm seeing the numbers trending down. So what I see then is like, okay, I still have these five additional coaches, and I don't need five additional coaches if the numbers are trending down. And so I start to kind of be like, okay, well I'm going to put this on watch and maybe give it another month of putting this in a place where I may have to start making some decisions on layoffs, which, again, is literally my least favourite thing to do in business, more than taxes, more than getting criticism, I do not like letting people go whether it's justified or not. 

     

    Then in June, again, I was still seeing the same trend myself when I looked at the data. And so at that point, I was also seeing behind the scenes, there was a lot of stuff going on that I wasn't fully understanding. So, again, I had managers on my team who were then in charge of leading the team while I focused on marketing, securing collaborations, all that stuff. And I was starting to see that there was a disconnect between me saying, hey, I want this to be done in the group, and then what was being done in the group was not the same as what I said. And that happened a few times to where I was like, I'm confused because I'm a fairly clear communicator. So that was sign number one for me.

     

    Eman Ismail: Okay. So you're giving your team instructions like this is how we're going to do a thing, and then it was done just totally differently.

     

    Jordan Gill: Yep. Yep.

     

    Eman Ismail: So you're looking at this thinking, well, what's going on? [laughs]

     

    Jordan Gill: Right. Exactly. What is happening? How is this happening? I'm confused. And again, my instructions are to my managers, then my managers are taking it to the team. So I'm like, hey, am I not being clear to my manager? Is the manager not being clear to the team? Where's the breakdown and whatnot? 

     

    And so what I realised and what I was made aware of then was that there was communication happening without me or without the manager in Slack. So, essentially, there were conversations about how to run my programme or how to do things in the programme or what's best for the programme without me and my manager present. And while it doesn't seem like that's a big deal, it kind of is because it's the programme that my reputation is connected to. It's my face. It's my name. And so if things aren't done the way that I intend for them to be done, then there's going to be a disconnect, obviously, then between the clients and myself.

     

    So it was frustrating for me. And then I went into really looking at, again, how much time are people even spending coaching-wise. And because, again, the coaching capacity is not filled, even close. I knew that the coaches were not going to be at their normal 40-hour work weeks as employees. However, it then was shocking actually how much lower their capacity, it was spread super thin, and there was all this extra time that I'm paying out for. And also, things weren't being done on time.

     

    So, again, I'm a systems person. So whenever I want to see stuff, I can see it because I can see when assignments are being sent days late, or I can see when a Loom video wasn't sent when it was supposed to because we run a remote team, and that's just how tools work these days. And so I was seeing your capacities are below 50% every single one. And not all my coaches, but some coaches, they had late assignments, which just—I don't have any room for that because it's one thing if you're overexerted and things are late, I get it. Then we need to hire somebody new. But if it's this as a problem, we gotta work this out.

     

    And so at that time, I had to make decisions on who I was going to let go. It had come to that point in HR where it was just like, we have to dial back. So I let go at that time two coaches, due to the decrease in sales, but also how I made that decision was based on low capacity and also, one of the coaches giving their assignments to other people, and therefore also just not doing the work that was necessary. So that was the first part, was letting go of two coaches. And I actually let go of my sales manager, her assistant, and two salespeople, because, again, the numbers just were not adding up.

     

    So we're at this point at three coaches, two salespeople. And we're like, okay, we're gearing up for our September virtual conference at this point, which our September virtual conferences are historically bigger than our March ones. So we're rolling through that. We did have a good September virtual conference. It was not higher per se than our March conference. It was right around the same, a little bit less actually. And so then I'm like, okay, we may have to make some additional decisions.

     

    So at that point, I was looking at it from a, we have a sales issue. And again, people that I respected who were on my sales team had conscious conversations. I'm still friends with both of them today and had to have conscious conversations about just, hey, I don't think that the sales process is working. And so after the virtual conference, we'll sever ties. So that all happened. And then one coach left right after a virtual conference, which was very hard because she was somebody that I really admire who was a great coach. And I knew because of all of the layoffs and the changes, that that could potentially cause me to lose the people that I really, really want on my team. And that's what happened, and it sucked. 

     

    And I realise so much more heavily now how much not having right-fit people on your team can affect having really great people on your team, right? They talk about if you have B and C players on your team, the A players are going to leave. And that happened. And so at that point, I had to make a decision around, do I want to continue building this programme and putting more effort into it.

     

    And at that point, I felt like the answer came very clearly because after the virtual conference, we have a bunch of welcome calls, onboarding, and we get new people in, and we started to see some refund requests. And up until that point, again, I'd had about 500 students, a little more in the programme, and we'd maybe had three or four refund requests, and that's not an exaggeration. And we hadn't even given a refund up until that point, and so we were able to always solve the refund issue. So at that point, I am seeing four or five refund requests come in in about a week. And I'm like, nope, red flag. Something's going on that I am not being privy to.

     

    And I talked to my husband about it and was just like, what is going on? And he's like, you need to have a call with just your clients and no coaches, no team members, no recording, no nothing. And he was right. I was like, ugh, this is going to be tough because I'm going to have to sit here and potentially hear things that I don't want to hear but need to hear in order to salvage, obviously, something that is going on. 

     

    And so I had a call, and I was so grateful, I think about 20 people showed up to the call and I was like, listen, nothing is being recorded. It's just me. Nobody else is here. I need to know what's going on because I'm somebody who cares and gives a crap. And if something is happening, I need you to tell me. And if you respect me as a business owner and want to be able to give me a second chance and show me grace, please do this in this moment. I'm not gonna then mark you in my CRM as trouble or anything like that, this is human to human, business owner to business owner, tell me what's up so I have the opportunity to fix it.

     

    And it was about an hour and a half call and heard a lot of things that were very upsetting to me. And I'm having to sit here and hear that these things are happening in my group programme where people are being told that they're not going to be successful because they're spending time caregiving for their mother, that people are being lazy, just things that I just—I mean, truly, even in this moment, I feel like I'm being brought back exactly to that conversation. And that is heartbreaking for me because those are exactly the people that I want to help and those are the people that I care about the most, and so the fact that these things are being shared and expressed verbally to people is beyond my comprehension.

     

    And in that moment, after that call, I cried for I don't even know how long. And I'm not necessarily a big crier, but when things really affect me, I do. And that was a moment that I just was so broken because it's like I have built this to such a big stage and yet this happened under my watch.

     

    And so the next day, I let go of that person. And I don't think that she's an evil person or a bad person. I don't think of people in that way, but I think that there were some actions and words that were said that were not appropriate. And so therefore, that was the quickest letting go I'd ever done. It was a day. And it was a very easy decision for me because in that moment, I had to protect my community and my clients. It was very devastating to me. And in that moment then, truly, it showed me—again, I was in that space of do I continue to build this programme and move forward with it more, or is it time for this to be done? And in that moment, it really became clear to me that this programme was done, not because we can't turn it around and all that sort of stuff, but I'd already at that point had nine coaches that I had hired over the past three years, poured my heart and soul into it—marketing, effort, all of that stuff—and I would have had to ramp that back up. And so if I'm gonna ramp it back up, maybe it's time for me to try something new.

     

    So that's when I decided that the September virtual conference was the last time I was going to do the programme. And then I started selling the self-study version of Done In A Day and move forward with that for a good 9 to 10 months from that moment. I guess a full 12 months at that moment. And that was really devastating to me at the end of 2022 because at the beginning of 2022, things were looking very bright. We're looking very positive. And so to be where I was at with less team, no idea really what I was going to sell-ish moving forward, and having a lot of painful layoff conversations and whatnot was not where I expected myself to be at the end of 2022 at all.

     

    And I do believe that the decision I made to overhire caused other people a lot of pain. It caused me a lot of pain. And I would never give that advice to anyone, especially employees as well. Like I said, there was a lot of HR, a lot. So my time ended up spending more on HR than it was marketing, and that affects the business, right? So it was a whirlwind, 2022 was. [laughs]

     

    Eman Ismail: This is so difficult on so many different fronts. I mean, again, I want to highlight the fact that things were, like you said, looking so bright. You have this launch where 79 people joined your programme in a five-day period. Was that your 400K month?

     

    Jordan Gill: Yeah.

     

    Eman Ismail: Was that that period?

     

    Jordan Gill: Yeah. That was it.

     

    Eman Ismail: A 400K month. Okay. Of course you hired more people. [laughs] Who wouldn't hire more people at that point?

     

    Jordan Gill: Right. It's like, hold on.

     

    Eman Ismail: Exactly. And so I can totally see how you came to that decision. And I think it's so difficult to—I mean, I've had that this year. It's so difficult to project what's going to happen in your future, in your business, because things change so quickly, so immediately, and you just can't see some things coming.

     

    Thank you so much for sharing all of that, because I mean, I can't imagine how difficult it was at the time, but then also to—I can see you reliving it as you're telling this story. So thank you for sharing that.

     

    Jordan Gill: Yeah.

     

    Eman Ismail: So you decided to shut down your Done In A Day programme and instead deliver it as a self-study course, which meant there were no more coaches. There was no more live elements to this programme. People could still join and get all the course content, but there were no more coaches, no more live elements.

     

    So let's talk about the other side of this. How did this mistake of overhiring make you? How did it help you become the business owner you are today?

     

    Jordan Gill: Yeah. So that mistake really gave me so much perspective on what it's like to run a seven-figure business and also what I really wanted. It was pretty much—again, 2023 was the year of shedding and really looking at what's most important to me. And I really care about people. And when I am being placed in a space where I'm not doing the work that I either enjoy the most or that brings in the best opportunity for our business, then that affects the business drastically, right? So, again, me focusing more on HR than marketing is going to affect the business.

     

    And so what it taught me was I need to stay more in the things that I enjoy. And I'm not saying that I should have ignored the HR, right? Because you can't really ignore the HR. However, knowing that now and knowing where I'm best being able to spend my time and my effort, it's not to probably ever have a big team again. So the lesson is, is that for me, just small and lean is where it's at and having more contractors—so I don't have any employees now—and working with more contractors feels more aligned with where I am in business and where I'm at, and so I don't have to handle all of the HR responsibilities and weight.

     

    Again, I shared a lot of the negative, obviously, but too the positive is that I did hire really great people. It wasn't all bad. It wasn't all negative. And so it did show me that it wasn't like my hiring processes were broken or that I should never hire anybody again, not at all. My lesson is that I actually do have a fairly good chooser and it just needs to be in the realm of contractors because, again, then it allows me to have a more positive experience with those people on my team and not bear the weight of employees. So my lessons were hard [laughs] and heavy. 

     

    And to also feel good about how I can show up best may not look like everybody else because I think in the online space, it's very in your face about, okay, this person has a big team or this person's spending bajillions on ads every month, and you get these very big, blatant messages. And so the people that you see that are just having the smaller teams and still having big impact, they aren't as loud. And so you think in your mind that it has to be this way. And that's, again, where I think people can get in trouble. And where my lesson is, is okay, just because it's the loudest voice doesn't mean it's the voice that aligns with where I want to go.

     

    So I have leaned way more on connections and way more on smaller rooms, more intimate rooms than the big auditoriums online so that I can actually hear different perspectives than I'm used to hearing out in the ether that is the online marketing industry. And I don't think it's a knock toward that industry at large either, but just being really careful about who you're taking advice from, what is their life like? What are the things that they're having to handle and deal with? And if someone's not open about all of that stuff, then it is going to be really tricky because you aren't going to be as equipped. I don't think I was equipped in any way, shape, or form to have employees in my business. Did I do it and came out the other side of it? Sure. But a lesson too is I'm not equipped to have employees. So I would say there's multiple lessons in there.

     

    I do think I am a great leader and so, again, there's the shame and whatnot that can creep in around oh my gosh, I'm just a terrible leader. I don't know if I'm a good manager, but I do believe that I'm a good leader. I do believe that I care and that I put things in place to really build up my team and develop my team. I had team members go to conferences and learn and go into programmes and develop themselves personally and professionally. Actually, a lot of my team members are in really great positions and are working for a lot of the bigger teams in the online marketing space. So I am really proud of them and was able to support them in getting those positions because I want them to succeed and be great.

     

    So, lots of lessons, lots of things that came out of it. And I have so much more understanding of who I am, how I show up best to now have a business that really does fit me and be the most aligned I can possibly create, probably more than ever, which is really exciting.

     

    Eman Ismail: I love that for you. And, you touched on this very slightly, but I'm really interested to know why you got the advice that you did because I know that when we're talking about growing our teams, is this conversation around whether you should hire employees or hire contractors, and I'm really interested to know why was the advice that you got to hire employees specifically? What was the reasoning behind that?

     

    Jordan Gill: The reason behind it was that it was more stable and that with contractors, you can't tell them when to work. And so when you have a group programme, there are definitely points where they have to show up at certain times. And so you wanted to protect yourself against contractor and employee law. And so that was the advice, was because, especially with coaches, specifically having them as employees was a big part of that, but then also being able to maintain and hire is going to be better because they also are solely focused on your business versus having multiple clients. Because with contractors, naturally, if something happens with another client or another client drops them and then they're having to spend more time on marketing and they're stressed, they're going to show up with stress in your business.

     

    And so that was the narrative that was shared. And I understand that narrative and obviously, it affected my decision-making and say, oh, yeah, I want to have a place that there is stability in people that stay for years and that I don't have to be concerned about if I tell them they need to be here at this time, they have to, so yeah, that was the narrative.

     

    Eman Ismail: Okay, I understand that. And, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounded like when you were talking about this experience that you were not maybe 100% convinced that hiring five people was the right way to go, but you did it-

     

    Jordan Gill: Correct.

     

    Eman Ismail: -because you trusted the people who were giving you advice. I think so many of us fall into that. It's so easy to do, to ignore your feelings about something because someone who is doing this better than you or has done this longer than you or just someone that you look up to is telling you to do it a different way. And so we ignore what we feel and think, well, I must be wrong. I'm just going to take this advice. What thoughts, what lessons have you learned from that part of this experience?

     

    Jordan Gill: Yeah. I need to trust my decision-making, which is something that I've struggled with for many years before I was even an entrepreneur and believing that I'm a good decision-maker. That's something that, yeah, I still struggle to this day, believing that I make good decisions. And so I actually need to more frequently look at how many good decisions I actually have made and how much it has outweighed the bad decisions. So I would say that's one lesson, is just I actually can trust my gut and can trust my own understanding of myself to know that, again, to be around a lot of people does drain my energy. 

     

    And I think about, it's like, when I go to events, I love going to events, and they also drain my energy, obviously, the fastest. And so I have to prepare to go to the event and then I have to have a kind of reorienting back into my regular life 'cause even for my live event last year or this year, whenever this is coming out, I had to get an IV pack before those two days. And I isolated myself and got as much sleep as possible and all of that so that I could show up and be super on for those two days and then allow myself the wean-off. So trusting my gut, knowing that I'm a good decision maker, knowing that even if I make bad decisions or bad decisions are happening around me, that I can always make it right.

     

    And so, again, with having the tough conversation with a lot of my clients, that was definitely not my favourite call I've ever done in my business and was necessary in order for me to remedy the situation. I knew that the decisions that I made, a lot of people said, oh my gosh, thank you so much. We appreciate you. We see your leadership. I know that was hard. All of that. There were definitely people who did not like my decision. And I cannot make 100% of people happy.

     

    And that's another lesson—I cannot make 100% of people happy. If anyone tells you that they have run a business where every single person has had an entirely magical, amazing experience with them is lying to you because even if you are the most well-intentioned, try to do the right thing, put a lot of thought and energy into every aspect, that doesn't mean that it's a right fit and a right match for everyone. And that's okay. That's very normal. And so that also, I think, is a lesson that I want to share on my end too, is that I have to make the decisions that I'm going to sleep well at night knowing that they're grounded in my values. And if I'm not doing that, then that's where I'm staying up all night, people-pleasing, and wanting to make sure every single person possible is able to be happy. I can't do that. Again, none of us can do that, but especially me who has only so much energy. 

     

    Eman Ismail: Growing up, your dad was a college and pro football coach. Now I'm not going to claim to know everything about American football culture, but I do know that it is important. And you wrote about this because it meant that your dad was in the public eye, which also put you and your family in the public eye. You wrote about this experience. You said, "I grew up with a football coach dad in a town that really cared about their football. If the team won, our family was golden, but if not, these folks weren't afraid to come after all of us, myself included, to make themselves feel better about the loss." That's a lot of pressure on you, on your dad, on your entire family. And you said something just then, which was that you've come to understand that you can't please everyone. And I was going to ask you what, if anything, did watching your dad in this position teach you about leadership, about visibility? But it sounds like one of those things is that you really can't please everyone.

     

    Jordan Gill: You really cannot, yeah. So when I was in college, my family at the time, I graduated high school in Buffalo, New York, and I went to Lawrence, Kansas, which is halfway across the United States, very far away, because I didn't want people to know who I was. So I wanted to be Jordan Gill and not Turner Gill's daughter. I love my dad. He is an amazing human, dad, person, and so it wasn't like a rebellious thing. It just was, I want to be my own person.

     

    So I moved halfway across the country and then my dad gives me a call a year and a half later into my sophomore year. And it's like, hey, so I want to become the next football coach at the college that you're at. And is that okay with you? [laughs] And I was just like, you have got to be kidding me. But I took a day to really think about it and realise, okay, it would be selfish of me to say no to that, number one, and number two, it's okay. It will be okay. And what was tough about that decision, he came to my school, was a football coach. And again, I become Coach Gill's daughter, which is fine and I'm used to, but then you have the eye on you. So that became tough.

     

    And I was going through journalism school. And so in the two years that he was there, I think their record was terrible, which the record was terrible before he got there anyway, but he was only given two years to coach and then was fired. And I remember that day very vividly. I was literally in the grocery store line talking to a friend of mine and my dad texted me while I was on the phone and said, hey, I've been let go today. It's okay. And I'll see you later for dinner. And in that grocery store line, again, I'm surrounded by people wearing this college gear, I'm about to graduate from this school, this is my alma mater. So they're not going away. And I'm just heartbroken. 

     

    And I get home to my roommates and all my roommates are pissed. And they're experiencing it too because they love me, they love my family, and they're like, okay, who do we need to pitchfork? We need to each take a blog and just go in on these people. And I'm like, absolutely not, number one, please don't actually, that's not helpful. And having to tell them actually just don't fuel the fire, just makes it worse when you do. And so for a while there, I was wearing hoodies on campus, headphones in, because there was all the talk about my dad sucked as a head football coach and a terrible leader and all of this stuff. And you're just having to hear that about somebody who you love and admire tremendously. And having people that maybe have met you once or twice telling news reporters things about you that aren't true. And then they're being splattered all over the internet and on newspapers and it's like, Jiminy Christmas.

     

    So that experience definitely was just like, okay, people can say whatever they want to say and splatter it wherever they want to splatter it, and I don't have control of it anyway. So I have to be comfortable with being misunderstood, again, when I'm like 21. And so I graduated college from there and whatnot, but being in the public eye was never something I wanted. After that experience, I was like, I'm cool with just being over here, nobody knowing who I am. And so then going into online business space, obviously, it's tricky to have a business when nobody knows who you are. So I did decide to put myself back out there and recognise that, again, if I want to make change, I do have to be seen. And that was really tough for me.

     

    But having experienced—again, my dad lives a lovely life. He golfs. He loves my mom too much. They have matching white Jeeps together. I was like, you guys are sickening a little bit, but-

     

    Eman Ismail: Relationship goals.

     

    Jordan Gill: -he lives a wonderful life. I know, right? And he lives a wonderful life regardless of the fact that there's people who absolutely hate him or believe that he did these crazy things that people said he did, he's able to maintain a loving wonderful life, and that's where I was able to see okay, this is possible. This is really possible.

     

    Eman Ismail: Wow. What an experience. Thank you so much for sharing that. I could see you in my mind walking through your college campus with your hood up and headphones on. What an experience. And I love that instead of hiding away, you did the exact opposite in a way that you never thought you would. It's amazing.

     

    Jordan Gill: Yeah.

     

    Eman Ismail: So, I mean, you've spoken about this a little bit, but I'm going to ask you anyway, because I feel like there are so many lessons that we can learn from this, but what do you want people listening to take away from your experience?

     

    Jordan Gill: Yeah, my biggest thing that I would love for people to take away is that I want people to empower themselves versus looking outwardly for validation and permission because too often we give that away and we give our agency away. We give no credit to how we've gotten ourselves to the position that we've gotten ourselves. And that's not to say don't ever have a coach or don't ever have a mentor or whatever else, because they are very powerful, and I've had very powerful ones. And always check back with yourself. And not just a quick gut check, quick thing, it really should be stuff that you take a minute on, take a breath, and really check if something is aligned or not. And also be okay with if you don't decide to take their advice, be grounded in that, even if that gets pushback from a coach or mentor saying you're making a horrible decision, you're not doing what I'm telling you to do, you're not being coachable, all of these rhetorics that we're being told when really we are, and again, our most grounded and aligned version of who we could be because we actually are checking in with ourselves and taking that beat. So that is the biggest lesson that I want people to take, is check in with yourself. And when you make a grounded decision, regardless of if people give you heat or not, you're going to sleep well at night. 

     

    There was a decision I made about Make Your Mark Live 2024 where I said, hey, the only people who I'm going to have on my stages are people who buy an early bird ticket. That is a stance. Did I think it was that big of a deal when I made that decision? Not necessarily because it felt good to me. It made sense. And then the pitchforks come and say I'm exploiting people and that I'm just trying to make money off people and whatever the case is, all sorts of stuff, instead of recognizing that what I meant by saying that is I only want my own community to be on my stage. 

     

    I'm building my business for myself and my family, and also to create a platform and spotlight for the community that I'm growing. I'm not interested and have never been interested in, do you have the biggest name? Do you have the biggest clout? How are you going to help me sell tickets? How are you going to do this? That's what a lot of other people do, and that's fine, and I get that. Or they just have their friends on their platform and not necessarily their own community. I also get that. And my decision was I don't want to just have people on my stage that are coming to be on my stage and peace out. I want people who are going to be in the room, present, engaged. And so how do I find that out, is if people already were going to be there anyway. And so, again, I felt very grounded. There were people who were texting me like, are you okay? I'm like, yeah, I'm great. What's happening? And they're like, well, people are kind of coming at you on Instagram. And I'm like, yeah, that's fine.

     

    And so, again, it's a reminder of I have to be okay with being misunderstood. I have to feel okay with people saying things and making assumptions and allegations and all that stuff that aren't true, and that is okay and I can still have a wonderful life with my husband and my bonus son and people who know me or people who want clarity in my decision making. I have no issue telling you why I made that decision. I will always share the reasoning behind it, but also, I'm not going to go and attack people back. I'm not going to fuel the fire. I'm not going to do any of that stuff. That's just not how I operate. I would rather just have an inner knowing and the people closest to me know who I am and how I operate and what my heart is, and that has given me the most peace ever. It's just, okay, this is my inner knowing This is the reasoning behind it. If you want to ask me, I will tell you, but what I'm not gonna do is play this game of take fire to my decision-making and attack my character. I just am not interested in that anymore.

     

    Eman Ismail: Good for you. Okay. So, I mean, we've spoken about so much. We've already said that 2023 was your year of letting go. 2023 was your shedding season. This is coming out in January 2024. So at this point, by the time people are listening, it's a brand new year. What is next for you, Jordan and Systems Saved Me?

     

    Jordan Gill: Yes. So what's next for me is I just want to have some fun. And I take business very seriously. Again, I'm a numbers data gal. And I think that 2023 was hard for a lot of people, both personally, professionally, all of that. And so I want to really ramp up and create a space where people can have some fun and be delighted and shine as smart and kind individuals. So I am actually building out a really awesome opportunity where I'm partnering with, or really just being a referral partner for a friend of mine, Amanda Rush Holmes, who runs a virtual assistant—for content marketing, specifically—agency. She's brilliant at what she does. And I am recognizing that in this realm that I'm in right now, I just have very, very, very low capacity myself to do a lot of delivery. And so knowing that, what is it that I do have capacity for? Okay, I have capacity for the marketing and sales collaborations. And I want to be able to pass on the delivery to somebody that's really great. 

     

    And so I'm actually building out a membership. It can feel maybe random to people, but also, people have given me feedback that it's actually not as random as I thought it would come off. So I am creating a membership where I am creating Reels templates to have people drop their stock video into and show up online on social, but not in a way that's like, I have to create a script and read it and the lighting and gotta put makeup on and all this stuff. It's like, no, I'm literally doing laundry and I'm just going to plop that video and add some value text 'cause that's what I've done anyway in my business. And I've really cultivated, again, a lot of smart and kind people in my community. So creating that membership, but then also collabing with Amanda to create a done-for-you solution version of that membership together. So that's a really cool way to partner where I have the capacity for marketing, she has the capacity for delivery, and I just get to bring really amazing people into her world, at least for a little while.

     

    Eman Ismail: That makes perfect sense to me. It goes back to what you were saying, what we were saying about your business being about tools, training, and consulting for building a business that prioritises your life. I love it.

     

    Thank you so much for joining me for this conversation, Jordan. It's been absolutely amazing talking to you. And I've been so excited to have this because you knew what you're going to talk about from the minute that pitch came in. And so it's been great digging in. Thank you for being so vulnerable, so honest. Where can people find you if they want to stay connected?

     

    Jordan Gill: Yes. So my favourite place to hang out is Instagram, which I know is not what people want to hear, but I love Instagram. I'm the one in DMs. I'm the one chit-chattering in the comments and all of that. I love connection and playing around on that platform. And so there's that. And then I do have my own podcast, Systems Saved Me, on Apple, Spotify, all the places. So I would say those probably are the two best places for you to come and hang out.

     

    I do have Make Your Mark Live coming in September 2024, which is really exciting. So if you want to come hang in person and collaborate and connect, that is somewhere you can hang out as well.

     

    Eman Ismail: Amazing. Thank you, Jordan. It's been great having you.

     

    Jordan Gill: Yes. Thanks so much for having me, Eman. This is wonderful. 

     

    Eman Ismail: I want to say thank you to Jordan for being so honest, open, and vulnerable. This couldn't have been an easy topic to talk about. It got me thinking about that time one of my coaches actually advised me not to do something. He told me it would be a terrible idea, that I'd be throwing money down the toilet if I did it. I didn't listen because I was being impatient. I went against his advice and I did it anyway. Turns out, he was right. I did end up regretting going ahead with it. But when all was said and done, I could at least know that I had made the decision I thought was best. I did the best I could based on the information I had at the time. So I was wrong. The important thing is that we're able to own our mistakes. We're able to learn from them and know that we can come back from most of them. I think Jordan did that really well. She could have blamed her mistake on her coaches, on the advice everyone around her was giving her, but she didn't. She owned her mistakes. She learned a lot from this whole debacle, and we got to learn from her lessons and her experience too.

     

    Ever wondered what goes into creating this podcast? What my production process looks like? How I came up with the concept for this show? How I choose which guests to invite and how exactly I research them? Well, I'm sharing everything inside my bonus episode, Behind the Scenes Making the Podcast. For this special episode, the show's podcast producer, Zuri Berry, takes the reins and interviews me so you can find out all the juicy details and behind-the-scenes stories. I reveal, for the first time ever, how I landed the HubSpot partnership and what that agreement involves as well as the key to sending a podcast pitch that'll get my attention, the interview methods that helped me nail my podcast interviews, and the resources and strategies I've used to help make this show a success. If you want instant access to this bonus episode, click the link in the show notes or head over to emancopyco.com/bts, that's behind the scenes, emancopyco.com/bts. Put in your email address, and that's it. It's yours.

     

    Next time on Mistakes That Made Me.

     

    Steve Folland: I thought I had great regular freelance income lined up, so I quit my job, and then within weeks, the freelance work was gone, and all my eggs were in that one basket, and it was just sitting at my feet. [laughs]

Eman Ismail
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