Episode #34: "Trusting coaches too much made me lose trust in myself"
Ever trusted a coach more than you trust yourself? Even when it comes to your own business, your own wants and needs, your own goals?
We can relate!
Today I’m chatting to Keenya Kelly – a video marketing and social media strategist and founder of Keenya Kelly LLC.
Keenya shares how she regained her confidence and autonomy in business after losing self-trust when she invested heavily in high-ticket coaches.
We talk about the importance of trusting yourself, the pitfalls of feeling like your coaches know everything (while you know nothing), and ways to balance learning from others while still feeling confident in your own abilities.
This episode also touches on Keenya's experience with TikTok marketing, building a community, and setting personal boundaries when you’re visible in the online world.
Listen to the Episode
Links from this episode:
Take Eman’s “What’s Your Perfect Newsletter Style?” quiz: https://www.emancopyco.com/quiz
Episode 21 with Mai-Kee Tsang: https://www.emancopyco.com/podcast/mai-kee-tsang
Listen to episode 7 with Tarzan Kay: https://www.emancopyco.com/podcast/tarzan-kay
Keenya Kelly’s 75 hooks: https://www.keenyakelly.com/75hooks
Keenya Kelly on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/keenyakelly
Keenya Kelly’s podcast: https://www.keenyakelly.com/podcasts/
Keenya Kelly on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/keenyakelly
If you loved this episode, take a screenshot, post it on Instagram, and tell everyone you know that this is the podcast to listen to. Don’t forget to tag me! @emancopyco
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Eman Ismail: The last time I joined a high ticket course or mastermind was almost two years ago. After spending years and years going from course to course and coach to coach, I started to lose myself a little bit. I didn't know what I wanted to do anymore. I didn't know if I could trust my own business decisions because I was so used to having a coach to run to for answers.
Now, don't get me wrong. I've had great experiences inside all these courses and masterminds and I loved all my coaches. But I needed to see if I could do business alone. I needed to regain the confidence I had in myself, in my own knowledge and in my own opinions without being influenced by anyone else, whether thatwas my business besties or my coaches. And honestly, it's been a great two years. I've definitely spent tens of thousands investing in coaches, but video marketing expert Keenya Kelly, well, she has me beat because she spent hundreds of thousands on coaches. And by the time she was that far in, she realized she no longer trusted herself anymore.
She trusted her coaches. She did what they told her to do. And even though she's managed to grow an audience of over half a million people on TikTok, And her business has generated over 2 million in just four years. She managed to convince herself that the coaches knew what was best for her and her business.
And she didn't.
Keenya Kelly: I've invested hundreds and thousands of dollars over the last eight years. And there were many times when I invested high end money with a coach because I felt like they knew more than what I knew and that I couldn't move forward without them.
And I realized I actually didn't need them. I knew what they knew.
Eman Ismail: On today's show, I'm speaking to Keenya Kelly, founder of Keenya Kelly LLC, a video marketing and consulting agency about how trusting her business coaches meant she eventually stopped trusting herself.
Keenya Kelly: And I feel like that if you're going to build a business or even in life that the number one person you have got to trust first is you. You got to give yourself permission to make good, good choices, not so good choices. But don't put so much emphasis into what everybody else thinks, what everybody else believes, what everybody else is marketing you to or selling or whatever, because at the end of the day, it still ends with you.
Eman Ismail: Welcome to Mistakes That Made Me the podcast that asks extraordinary business owners to share their biggest business mistake so you know what not to do on your road to success. Mistakes That Made Me is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name's Eman Ismail and I'm an email strategist and copywriter for online business owners like you at Emancopyco.Com, I'm a podcast lover, a pizza binger, a proud mama of two, and I have this radical idea that if maybe us business owners were a little less guarded and a lot more open about the mistakes we've made, we could help each other grow a business that brings us more joy and less regret.
The Product Boss, hosted by Jacqueline Snyder and Mina Kunlo Sitap, is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals, take your physical product sales and strategy to the next level to create your dream life with hosts Jacqueline and Mina, as they deliver a workshop style strategy hour of social media and marketing strategies so you can up level as the boss of your business.
If I were you, I'd start with episode 640, how do I turn my creative hobby into a profitable product based business? A coaching session with Jacqueline. Listen to the Product Boss, wherever you get your podcasts.
Keenya Kelly: I am Keenya Kelly. I am a video marketing and social media strategist. I basically teach business owners how to utilize video to build an online brand, generate leads and make money. But most people would just call me a TikTok queen.
Eman Ismail: I love it. So when I was, okay, I should first mention that we've met in real life and I feel like I always have to say this when this is the case because there's not a lot of guests that I've met in real life, but we both spoke at Atomicon over the summer and I kind of accosted you at breakfast
Keenya Kelly: loved it.
Eman Ismail: Because I wanted to say hi. I have been following you for a while and I believe you've worked with Rachel Rogers, right?
Keenya Kelly: Her
Eman Ismail: Yeah. Yes. So, and yes, you spoke at a conference and I love Rachel Rogers. So yeah, I absolutely love her. And so, I've been following you for a while and I was like, oh, let me, let me go say hi to Keenya. We had a quick chat over breakfast and then I was like, let me allow you to finish eating your breakfast.
I'll speak to you soon. But it was really great to meet you in person.
Keenya Kelly: You too. You too. I was so excited. Like I saw you, I saw you coming and I was like, Oh, does she, I was like, I loved her session and I was like, oh, does she know who I am? I was like, Oh, I think she knows who I am. That's so cool. You
Eman Ismail: do and this is the amazing thing with social media and all it just The the way that it makes you feel like you have met someone before that, you know them It's it's pretty special. So I'm glad that we're getting to chat again.
Keenya Kelly: And hopefully I can come back over.
Eman Ismail: Okay, so when I was kind of like doing my, my research and find out more about you, you talk very openly about the fact that you, you got divorced and that you were homeless for 30 days and now you've built a business that's made over $2 million.
Fill in the blanks for us between, between that.
Keenya Kelly: So I always like to remind people that, well, most people don't know this, but like, I'm not the average divorcee. I feel like I got a leg up on the divorcee. So I never want divorcees to feel bad when they hear what happened after I left, got divorced. But my story started when I was 20, I got in network marketing and so I was highly trained to, to listen to books, read books.
I mean, I had so much in me. So then in 2016, when I started going through divorce, everything that was on the inside of me, I needed it in that moment. And it just all started to kind of come out and it like, It helped me to leave my ex within like 30 days to find out he was cheating. And within six months it was over.
But also I was already an entrepreneur in that. And I had already done all this like personal development work years prior. So my instincts kind of like kicked in and it was like, you don't have a place to live. And so my friends put me in a hotel for a month, but my instincts kicked in was like, okay, go get a job, go get a better job check.
Then it was like, okay, you're once you're mentally stable, figure out a way to make some extra money. And so somebody recruited me back into the network marketing industry. And I made 400, 000. Like that, because that was so much in me. But I also knew that that wasn't going to be the end of my story. I just didn't know where I was going to go with that.
And that's when I learned about the coaching industry about a year after getting divorced.
Eman Ismail: Wow. Okay. Okay. And so in terms of getting to such a place in your business, what do you think has been the kind of key thing? If you could pick one thing, I know that's really difficult because often it's lots of things
Keenya Kelly: Yeah. the key thing I would say is. Being bold and just being like, if you met me and you hear my story, you would go, Oh my God, this girl is fearless. I'm not fearless. I deal with fear all day, every day. Like everybody else. I am just someone who looks at fear and says, F you basically that I can either go backwards or I can go forwards.
I'm scared to go forwards. But I'm gonna face this and I'm gonna go full speed ahead and figure it, like I'm gonna jump off the building and grow wings on the way down. That is definitely my superpower.
Eman Ismail: And I was actually gonna. Ask you about something similar because I've heard you talk about self confidence because obviously what you do is you teach people how to show up on video for their business. and that's really hard for a lot of people. So I was really interested to hear you talk about self confidence and the fact that you have had, I don't know if you still do, but you have had issues with your self confidence.
But you did it anyway, you still showed up on video anyway. And you spoke specifically about, having kind of confidence issues around your teeth, which really resonated with me because I'm the same. My, it's, my teeth are that one thing, that one thing, and has been my entire life. you talked about, wanting braces or Invisalign and not being able to get it and at that time not being able to afford it and still just being like, okay, I'm still gonna show up on video.
Keenya Kelly: Mm-hmm
Eman Ismail: I have had braces as a teen and Invisalign as an adult. I'm like, and I'm still not happy a hundred percent, honestly. But that really resonated with me because I'm, I am one of those people who show up on video. I don't like myself on video. Especially, especially after having my second baby. I just, I've never lost the baby weight.
And you know, you just know in yourself when you're not comfortable, when you're not at your best. I'm one of those people who I just, I record the thing and I just like, I have to ignore all the stuff that's going on in my head as I'm like, looking back over the video. I'm like, just don't, otherwise I won't do it.
I just don't want to do it. Sowhat do you say to people who are like, Oh yeah, you know, I want to be on video for my business, but I just, I can't, the self confidence stuff is just too much. Uh
Keenya Kelly: One of the things I always like to talk to people about is like video, that's just the end result. But there, there truly is like, what is going on the inside of us? Right. That's why, like with my clients, yes, I can teach you how to do X, Y, Z, but you are still the person that still has to show up. And so we have to figure out what exactly is the problem, right?
So for me, mine was my teeth were so, crooked. I mean, it was just crazy. And then I gained like 50 pounds cause I had like tumors in my stomach. It was crazy. And I was like, what is, what am I feeling? I'm like, Oh, I don't like the way my teeth look. I feel this, this, and this, Oh, people online are going to see she's gained a ton of weight.
I'm like, well, what am I feeling? Oh, I'm feeling ugly. I'm feeling that low self worth. I'm feeling like I don't look like the Instagram girls, or I don't look like the way that I used to. I had to acknowledge, first of all, this is how I'm feeling. This is how I'm feeling about myself. And then I said, what can I change about that?
It's like, well, technically until I can afford to get braces, I can't change anything about it. Then I said, what about my weight? It's like, well, I can't do anything about the weight until the weight comes off. You know, I was like, so in between, what can I do? And I had to just ask, you know, choose to do something like, like show up so that I can get the money to get braces or not.
So with a client, I am like, hey, what is it you're actually feeling? Right. So like a lot of my students I had, and many of them had issues with on camera, being on camera. I said, why? Oh, because I'm fat. Oh, because of this. I'm like, well, who's going to see it? Oh, people from high school. Oh, people from here, here and here.
I'm like, so that is the real feeling you're having. How do you feel about the fact that you don't want to show up online for your business cause you're afraid of what Susie or John is going to say from high school. Like it's not until a person really can like peel back the actual feelings that they can see how sometimes how dumb it is or maybe how real that it is.
And then they can choose to identify like, if I can move for even with the way that this looks or the way the way that this is or do I need to make a change first. And so the clients that won't show up until something change I can't make them do anything, but those that just need some motivation I will tell them all these different stories.
I'll pull up videos of my teeth when they were super crooked I'll show them my body before and after and they always go. Oh shoot, and I'm like see. And, and the ones that want to do it, they'll then start doing it when I show them that, but the other ones who got to fix stuff first. And I'm like, okay, you got to go and fix stuff if that's what you had to do.
But a lot of times I tell them to go to therapy. A lot of my clients, I push them to therapy and they go to therapy and they go, oh my God, I feel good now. Cause it really wasn't camera. It really was something that happened in their childhood, their mom, dad, or whatever. People,
Eman Ismail: that's amazing. And yeah, I'm a big fan of therapy, so I can, I can definitely see how that would help. And also I just feel like every business owner, I'm not just business owners, people in general, but yes, everyone should try therapy. yeah, I always say you go in for one thing while you think you're going in for one thing, it turns out to be something completely different. You're like, oh, I get me now. I get it.
So, you mentioned that people, you know, sometimes don't post because of, you know, people from school are following them or whatever, my old workplace. It's funny because that, that happens sometimes to me, like mentally, that little voice tells me that, especially when those people like, like my stuff.
And it's so funny because they're being supportive. They're liking my content and I'm like, Oh my God, you just liked it. Oh my God. I like, I was so embarrassed.
Keenya Kelly: But they saw it.
Eman Ismail: They saw it. Exactly. So then I'm like, well, either you block them all. Okay. Oh, you're just gonna have to deal with it? Like, what are you gonna do?
Keenya Kelly: Yeah. Yeah. Well, that just happened to me at church on a, on Sunday. So I have like two accounts on TikTok. One is I teach video marketing and another one I recently started. Cause I want it to be more creative, have more fun. Talk about being in Houston, dating in Houston since I just moved here. Uh, somebody that's high up in the women's ministry walks over to me in the middle of church and says, are you on TikTok? And I was like, which one? The dating one and I'm like, good God almighty. And so now all of them, they're watching all the content and I'm like, well, I'm not doing anything crazy. So, and then when they like a post, I'm like, Oh God,
Eman Ismail: is so funny. The algorithm is really working for you. It's like, let me find all the locals.
Keenya Kelly: Well, I'm trying to get wifed up. So I'm trying to reach the local, so it's working. It's just hitting the church people too.
Eman Ismail: Well, maybe they'll help you. Maybe, maybe they're the people to help you and to set you up. You know, the algorithm knows what it's doing.
Keenya Kelly: Oh, you know what I'm saying?
Eman Ismail: Oh my gosh. And so this, I mean, you have been, You've done some really amazing visibility stuff. You have, you've been in TV shows, ads, you spoke about your Bumble campaign, TikTok campaign, you've done a lot and
What I love about what you do is that you bring in so many different aspects of yourself. Like you you're not afraid to really show who you are show your personality Like give people insights into different parts of your life andyou know, you just mentioned having a Tik Tok just for creativity about dating and just having fun. You spoke, you talk about that on your podcast as well. You talk about applying for the reality show. And so I'm really interested in this idea of how do we figure out what we talk about? Because I feel like the, the advice I would get is, well, Eman, you're an email strategist. So just talk about email and that's great.
But I can really relate to wanting to, to talk about more stuff. So how could you do that in a way that still feels aligned and still feels like it's serving your business?
Keenya Kelly: Mm hmm. Yeah. So, the first thing is, it's like, it's identifying what is your brand? So when I was identifying the Keenya Kelly brand, there were things that I will talk about. There's things that I won't talk about. Right. And I identified that way early on. I'm like, I'm open to all this stuff. I never share my ex's face, his name.
I shared that he cheated, but I would never, you know, certain things. And then certain aspects of my family. It's like, I'm just not, I'm not going to go there with that. Cause they didn't ask to be there. But then I also made a decision of like, if the whole world knows all these things about me. What do I not want them to know?
Never share that. What am I okay with sharing? And then I said, okay, what is the impact I'm trying to make with my brand? Well, my brand isn't just teaching people how to use video. I'm trying to help millions of women become millionaires, but whole women. Right? So it's like, she's making money, but she's with her partner and she's still, she's still cool.
She's got kids and she's still with her kids. Right. She is, her friends still love her. She's still showing up for people. She may have Taylor Swift status or whatever, but she's still at her best friend's wedding and everybody's freaking out because Taylor Swift's a bridesmaid, you know, those are the, the women that I'm trying to quote unquote raise with my, my, my.
And so I'm like, if that is who, what I'm trying to do with them, then these women have got to see me, they've got to see, Oh, Keenya is missing some teeth. Oh, Keenya has chin hairs. Oh, Keenya is dealing with hot flashes. She's this. And like, she's, you know, cause that's, that's the woman that I am encountering that I'm trying to impact.
So, for you, for example, you know, yes, you help with emails, but you're like, if your brand is you, then you could choose how much of, of you, you want to share. But cause the truth is the people that connect with us, they want to know everything like they, we met, we feel like they don't want to know everything. But if we sit down with them, they want to know everything. Like everybody's asking me what happened with the date. This is, isn't it? They want to know because they get so invested. So we can decide how much we share. And all of that helps my business. People trust me. They know me like, cause they're like, this is her.
Like I tell people all the time, I have an attitude like everybody else. I'm really friendly, but if I'm tired, I might have attitude. If this is happening, if I'm overly stimulated, this might happen. And all of that resonates with the human to say, oh, this, she's just like me and I trust her, and of course I wanna invest to work with her.
Eman Ismail: I love that and I think it's so important what you said around creating boundaries and maintaining those boundaries and knowing what they are early on. Because I think a lot of people think, to create any kind of traction online, I have to share everything. I have to tell everyone everything. And like you said, I have boundaries too.
I, I talk about having kids, but you'll never hear me say my kids names. Or give away any kind of like, identifying information. Or even like, just telling stories where I think they might not like me. Telling that story when they're older, you know, and just maintaining their dignity as kids. Never showing their faces, that kind of thing.
And I know, I, I came across a thread the other day where someone was complaining about people who don't show their kids online. Or like, you know, post their kids, but maybe like cover their
Keenya Kelly: Yeah.
Eman Ismail: And they had an issue with that. And, and I'm, I'm thinking, well, you can have an issue with it. Like have an issue with it.
The people who, yeah, that's it. It's, that's my line. It's my boundary. And I think a lot of people will understand that. So, I love that you're giving people permission to keep things to yourself. There's some things that are just personal, and that you don't need to share unless you want to.
Keenya Kelly: Mm hmm. Exactly. I mean, I know that the social media world makes you feel like people are sharing everything, but they're not. That's like, even with Kim Kardashian, they think Kim is sharing everything, but she's not. Kim is sharing what she wants you to know, period. And we all started to realize that when she wouldn't bash Kanye, you know, the more he kept doing all of what he was doing. And we're like, why isn't she saying anything? She has a boundary. She is not going to do that to her child's father. No matter what he does to her, because she cares about herself, him, and she cares about her children. She's got boundaries and we all should have them too.
Eman Ismail: That is so true. That's so true. We make the assumption that, oh, you know, they give away everything. They just tell us everything. You know, but they don't. They really, really don't. We only know what we know. We only see what they want us to see, and we only know what they
Keenya Kelly: Exactly.
Eman Ismail: Such a great point.
Okay, Keenya, I am ready to get into why you're here. Are you ready?
Keenya Kelly: Yes.
Eman Ismail: Okay, Keenya, what is the mistake that made you?
Keenya Kelly: So the biggest mistake that I've made is thinking that everybody knows more than what I know when it comes to coaches. I've invested hundreds and thousands of dollars over the last eight years. And there were many times when I invested high end money with a coach because I felt like they knew more than what I knew and that I couldn't move forward without them.
And I realized I actually didn't need them. I knew what they knew.
Eman Ismail: Okay, so take me back to the time when you were kind of in this place where you were investing a lot of money with coaches. What was going on in your life and business?
Keenya Kelly: Yeah. So especially when I first got started, back in 2016, I had a corporate job and, people wanted to hire me to consult with them, but I, that was so new to me. So I had heard about, well, first of all, I knew somebody. And so I paid the $300 for an hour her time. I knew her, but I was like, I'm gonna pay.
And that was my first instance into the coaching industry of like, I could be something with my own name. So then I invested $10,000 into a coaching program for a year. And during that time, there were these moments when I was just kind of like, this is good. This is not so good. This is good. This is not so good. This person's unethical. They're, you know, and all these different things. And I just kept feeling like if I was going to get to where I am today or where I really want to go, I got to keep investing high end because these people know more than what I know.
Eman Ismail: This is a really interesting topic for me because, well two reasons. I'm actually in like a, in a space where I've taken a break from having any coaches. I've not had a coach for, yeah, nearly two years and it has been so refreshing. I feel like I'm really learning who I am as a business owner without any like outside
Keenya Kelly: Mm hmm.
Eman Ismail: So this is a really great conversation for me. And also I love that we're talking specifically about high end coaching because the most I've ever invested in a coach is, $6,000 for a six month mastermind. And it was great. Really enjoyed it. But I don't know what it is. I think it's, I think it's because of my kids.
Whenever I see, and this might be, this might be like a limited mindset thing. This is what I struggle with sometimes. Whenever I see this like super high ticket programs or anything, all I think about is what that could go to in terms of my family and maybe it's not a limited mindset, maybe it just shows like, what I'm valuing at the moment, like where my priorities lie. Because even though I, I can love the coach, I can love everything they do. I could really, really want to join. But I'm just not joining because I'm like, we could go on most amazing family holiday and just have like the best time. I don't know.
Maybe it's, maybe it's a limited mindset. Maybe there's something wrong with how I'm thinking about this. But I've, I've drawn a line. I've drawn a line, at the moment anyway, of investing in anything kind of more than that. So, I like that we're talking high ticket.
Keenya Kelly: Mm hmm. I mean, and it makes sense for you have different values. So you're like, you have a partner, you have kids, you're thinking, you're thinking about the future. You think about the present, but you also think about the future because you've got all these people depending on you, you know, like, cause you birthed them, you know what I mean?
So it makes total sense why you wouldn't just go. Why you just wouldn't go and do that. You know, I, if I, I think if I had children, I may have thought a little bit differently with where each dollar goes, but because it was just me and the limited mindset that I had around that, the fact that they're no more than me or whatever, that's what made me, what caused me to invest like that.
Eman Ismail: Mm. Okay. And so what were your experiences inside of these different, programs? And I imagine they were like different experiences with different ones, but were you happy with the investments you were making at the time?
Keenya Kelly: I think that there were aspects of where I was happy. So for example, the first 10, 000 one, I was very happy because I knew nothing about the coaching world and I was learning so much. I loved going to look at that. She had like two events a year and you could go to these live events and learn. And I, there was just so much that I was learning that.
I mean, obviously I hadn't gone to school for, I didn't go to entrepreneurial school, so I felt like I milked that mastermind. Like, I felt like people in there were just like, what is going on? Cause they were, I was so, I wasn't, I was dominating, but I was like, if I'm in a room. And I'm going to be here for three days. I'm going to ask you questions for three days. While y'all playing, I'm here to get what I need to get, you know?
So, but then the downside of that mastermind was the coach was very kind of manipulative. So like the program that was created, wasn't really my program. It was like, they got information off the internet, they created this course and I was to sell the course, but it wasn't actually things that had come out of my mind.
And so I sold it to some people. And it wasn't a good thing. So I had to go back and redo things my own way. So I kind of learned that negative aspect, but for the most part, the first one was good. And then just over the years, there were just aspects of things that I, I value. Like for the most part, I didn't really value howpeople weren't really trying to get to know me and who I am and all the inside of me and just wanted to focus on what I was today or the easy route today. I didn't really like that part. But I love all the people that I met and all the relationships, like one mastermind, we created a Slack group and we're all in the Slack group and we're not paying each other, but we're all coaching each other. Cause we were all in that same mastermind.
Eman Ismail: Yes, that, the peer masterminds. I think often with a lot of these programs and masterminds, it's, it's about the people that you meet inside as well and the relationships that you form. And just being in like a, that container where it's all working towards the same goal.
I am also part of, I'm actually part of two.I'm two peer masterminds and they are the most valuable kind of things I've, I've spent time on or spent time in, both of them free, were friends, business owners who are just supporting each other, coaching each other, you know, monthly zoom calls type of thing.
Keenya Kelly: Oh,
Eman Ismail: has been, yeah, one's been going for ah, maybe four years actually. And so we're
Keenya Kelly: Gotta introduce me to that one.
Eman Ismail: yeah, well, we're, we're, we're so close now. We're business besties. And what's funny is I, and I guess this is how it works, right? I knew both of them separately and I was like, You two would really get on. I really need you, I really need you to meet.
And so I introduced them and then we all just got on like a house on fire and have just been really close ever since and supporting one another. And what's great is that I think when you first go into business you feel like You can't do things like that because maybe like, well, these are technically your competitors.
And then you, then you realize, oh wait, actually things would be a lot easier if we weren't competitors. And we just saw each other as, as, as peers, as friends. And we work together. Yeah, which is great. And, and then my second one as well has been really fun. Those people, those ones are in completely different industries.
To me, we're all doing different things, which is where the value really comes in I think. Everyone brings such different perspectives, such different, angles and views on things. So, it's often, yeah, the people, the people that you meet in and the relationships that you form, the friendships that you form and how you, how you're able to support each other.
And that doesn't always have to be something that you pay for. I'm a really big believer in that.
Keenya Kelly: Mm-hmm
Eman Ismail: Yes. So give me an example of a time that you trusted, uh, your coach over yourself.
Keenya Kelly: For sure. So for about four and a half years ago, I got into TikTok marketing and I had a brand design agency, and then I decided to shift to video marketing because it was just brand design was just too hard. And I started to blow up on TikTok, teaching people video marketing strategies and people in 2020 started to, realized something was happening on TikTok and then 21, everybody started having me on all the podcasts, all the stages and all the things.
And so I hired a coach because I was like, where do I go with this? I have this course, but I know that there's more that I could be doing that I don't know I should be doing. And the coach wanted me to just hone in and just become the go to person for TikTok marketing. And I was like, okay, I paid for them. I trusted them. And during the time I started to watch my revenue decrease well before they talk about banning. And I couldn't figure out at first what was happening until I started having these private conversations with people and on podcasts. and even trying to get clients and they started seeing me as this young person.
Now I like to be, feel like I'm young, but they were treating me like I was not a 40 something year old woman. They were treating me like I was this 20 year old person trying to teach TikTok and I'm like, I'm a strategist. Why are people treating me like that? And I started to realize it was because the perception that people had of TikTok was this dancing app, this goofy place, place to just have fun. Cause that's how they were introduced to it during, you know, COVID times. And the coach didn't, he didn't fully understand how the public saw TikTok, how business people saw TikTok and how they wouldn't invest in a TikTok marketing strategist, because for them, it made, it made no sense to be marketing their businesses on TikTok.
And so we lost a ton of money and I watched my popularity or, uh, what's the word for it? It's, trust or whatever in the marketplace go down because people were experiencing me as this TikTok person. And it was when I made a decision of like, hey, let me not put myself in a TikTok bucket. Let me put myself in a video marketing bucket.
Then everything went back to normal and kept getting higher. But I trusted that they knew more than I did because their price tag and what people knew them in the industry. I didn't really trust my own belief about what I should be doing and shouldn't be doing.
Eman Ismail: That's so interesting. I also think it's really interesting that they told you what to do. And they were like, this is, this is what you're going to do. Go do that. I think, and tell me if you disagree, I think a coach's job isn't to tell you what to do. It's to really understand you and to help you get to the place where you can now figure out what is best for you.
Because you'll never have all the answers. To be able to say you and you never have all the information on someone's business to be able to say, hey, Keenya, you need to do this. So I think that's very interesting.
Keenya Kelly: Yeah, I agree with you. I think it was more so my, my fault. I think that because like my biggest mistake is thinking that everybody else is smarter than me. Uh, everybody's more wise than me. So I was putting all of my, the responsibility on them kind of sort of being like, they know better. If they tell me what to do, that's exactly what I'm going to do. They can see it. They've been in the industry a long time versus me kind of bringing what I am thinking and being strategic about it and asking for their input.
For the longest time, I just kept. Everybody knows more, everybody knows more, but that's something that I had to issue with, not just in my business, but I've done that in my personal life. I've done that with spiritual things. And I had to, in therapy, I had to deal with like, what is going on? What is it? How I feel about myself to where I'm making everybody in every aspect of my life smarter. And I had to deal with me.
Eman Ismail: Interesting. So I've been in the position where, like, I mean, I started my business when I was 20, 20, 25, 26. I came in feeling like, oh, I know nothing. I need to. Just do everything that everybody else tells me to do. And it got to the stage where I remember thinking at one point, okay, this doesn't feel right for me. But they told me that I should do this, so I just don't know. And I should just do what they told me to do. And then it got to a point where I thought, okay, no, this really isn't working for me. I remember one time realising that it did matter that I was a parent, because the, what, you know, I was being told to do, it didn't align, like, logistically, it didn't align with my life, even just, I couldn't, even just, I couldn't put in the number of hours that they wanted me to put in, because I had a human being to look after, and then just kind of sitting myself down and saying, like, this isn't working, it took so much, self confidence and self esteem to be able to go against people who were very much experts in my field, who had years and years on me, and to be able to tell myself, hey, you need to do almost, sometimes the exact opposite of what they're telling you to do.
What, how did you feel in that moment making that decision and was there anything that helped you, you know, get to that place, confidence and esteem wise, self esteem wise where you could go against what your coaches were telling you? Because again, it seems simple, but I know from experience that it takes a lot.
It takes a lot of courage.
Keenya Kelly: it definitely does. You know, honestly, it didn't happen until the program was over. Once the year was over with, I had realized how much money I invested and how I had basically taken steps back, then steps forward. And I was looking at my revenue and was like, okay, you got to make some changes.
And so I had to take a look at what I was doing, how I was doing it, what the, how the market was responding. And then I had to go back to what I knew. And I just started making changes on my own. And once I started seeing the traction of my own expertise is when I started to go, okay, people are great.
They know what they know, but a coach can only coach you based upon what you, what you're kind of giving them. So why don't we go on a journey of you, what you're good at and like your audience and what your audience is demanding and all this type of stuff. And then create from, create from that space. So I had to get out of a program.
Like I haven't coached long term with someone in a while. had to get out of the programs and just start creating and start strategizing and trying this and trying that, trying this and trying that. And periodically I would pay somebody for an hour and say, hey, I got a question about this. Can you help me with this particular thing here?
And I wouldn't give them my whole business. I would just give them one part. And most of them started to validate my thoughts and they would just tweak little things here and there. So I, I had to just go, hey, you know, a lot, you need to stop putting everybody else in the driver's seat of your own car.
Eman Ismail: Yeah, I, I totally agree. I have definitely started paying people for more kind of consulting types of situations. Help me solve this one problem. And it's great because you realize I actually, I don't need, I don't need a coach for six months. I don't need a coach for a year. I just need an expert to help me with this one specific problem.
So yeah, I totally, I totally agree. And, and, and I love that for you. So in terms of you coaching and helping people, because you're a coach too, did this experience in any way change or shape how you coach?
Keenya Kelly: Oh, yeah, for sure. Well, first of all, it made me not create a high ticket coaching program. Well, one of the reasons is because I watched so many of the coaches that I worked with burn out.
Eman Ismail: Um, They're serving all these people making all this money, but they just, I watched them burn out. But then two, I asked myself, I don't really know if I like some of the people who want to coach with me.
Keenya Kelly: And if I got to coach them for an entire year and I don't like them, I mean, I may love them as people, but I mean, I like them as a client. I'm like, I don't think I want to have that type of, you know, restriction or whatever. And because I started a business to have some time freedom, to have some financial freedom.
And if I have a long term, you know, like 10 people for a year, I am, there's no, there's some wiggle room, but there's not a whole lot of wiggle room when it comes to that, what if I get sick or whatever, you know what I mean? But then also I recognize that my coaches that I had, they needed to make some pivots midway through and they couldn't because they were in contracts with a lot of us. And I'm like, I don't think I want that. I think I would do something for six months. And that way, if I like what I'm doing, I can renew it for six months. but like one of my absolute favorite coaches, her name is to Dawn. I would pay her all day, every day.
And. I worked with her for a year and then she stopped the program and then she just started saying, all right, those of y'all that were in a program, if you want to work with me one to one, we can do that. And she's the only person that I've ever gone back to. And I say, hey, can I coach with you again for 90 days?
And I pay her again for 90 days because of, you know what she does and she doesn't do the long term anymore because it's too, it's just too much. And I wanted to have freedom for myself and I don't encourage my clients to do long term, I mean, high end coaching. I don't discourage them, but I'm not like, girl, let's have a high ticket coaching program.
Hmm. Hmm. Mm
Eman Ismail: Interesting because one of the most difficult times in my business was when I had a six month waitlist and I had a bunch of clients like locked in for the next six months. And I hear people often say that, you know, the waitlist is the dream. I hear people say things like, I have a wait, I have a year long waitlist.
My, I'm booked up until the end of 2025. That is my worst nightmare. That is my worst nightmare. Because when I had that waitlist for six months and I had all those projects lined up for six months, I couldn't do anything else. I couldn't do anything else. I, that happened to me where I realized that I needed to change some of my services, how I was doing things.
I couldn't do any of it. And actually I ended up moving country between that time. And so it was like, oh my gosh, I don't have any space. I don't have any time. I don't have any flexibility. I don't have any freedom. I felt completely locked in. And so it was probably a really great experience actually because it taught me how much I value that freedom and flexibility.
I, I, I, and when I don't have it, I feel like I can't breathe. Like it's like things are closing in on me. The business is closing on me. And so I changed the way I do business entirely, how I do projects, all that kind of thing. Just based on that one thing to give me that leeway, like you said, just make sure that I'm, I can be flexible.
I can take time off when I need to, I can, you know, the holidays off with my kids, or when I get sick, I can take time off. I think that's really important.
Keenya Kelly: Mm hmm. That's like, we're doing that right now in my business. Like I've been evaluating all the different things that I've been doing all the years, and I've been just looking at my time and I'm like, once I went to Newcastle for the Atomicon, I was like, I want to do this again, but I don't want to do it because I got hired to speak.
I want to do it because I want to do it. I want to go to Italy. There's all these places I want to go to. And I'm like, I built an online business, but I built a job and I'm like, I need to restructure my business so that I don't, it doesn't matter what country I'm in, that I can run my business. And I'm like, okay, so I'm have a eight hour session with a coach on Thursday and Friday, and we're just restructuring my membership because it's not a big membership membership at all.
And we're going all in the 2022, 24 or five on my membership, serving it very deep with a massive group of people who. And that being my main thing, because I'm like, with that, I can be in whatever country that I'm in. I'm not having to have my studio and no, you know, and I've been telling my team who's overseas.
I'm like, y'all, we're getting ready to switch things. You can still get paid the same that you're getting paid, but the hour is going to be different. You're going to work on your time zone and we're going to work inside of our project management software, and we're going to work that way. If I'm in China or if I'm in Columbia, the company's still running the same because we're not banking upon everybody being here at nine to five.
Eman Ismail: Oh, that's so interesting. And I, I've been working on something similar, but less, uh, time based. Cause I feel like me and my, my team that have people all over the world as well, we're pretty good in terms of like being able to work asynchronously, the struggle for me is I've created a job for myself where if I'm not, if I'm not working, There's no money being made and I despise that.
So,and so yeah, this is what I've been working on for the past year, I would say. It's been a priority and it's just, it takes so much time to like change things, like change all those deep things. So it's taking time but we're going in that direction where I don't have to be sat at my desk to be making
Keenya Kelly: hmm. Exactly. That's why I started going in on YouTube, uh, and finally got my channel monetized. And I'm like, I think I made 150 this month. I'm like, you know, cause I'm like, if I can continue to do that and that's giving me reoccurring revenue, I'm like, all right, put some emphasis there. And my membership, that's a reoccurring model.
I'm like, okay, put it all there and give them everything you've got all the time. They won't ever leave.
Eman Ismail: Love it.
Eman Ismail: Okay. So let's talk about the next part of this. How did this mistake of trusting everyone else and not trusting yourself? How did this mistake make you?
Keenya Kelly: So I would say that initially it made me really see I had some self esteem issues, but yes, I may have had the like physical ones with camera, but it was like, no, I had some mental ones. You know, and I was like, I had to really, really like dive deep into me and go, this has nothing to do with my business. This has nothing to do with any of that. What is going on? What did I, where did I get this from? When did I start believing that everybody knew more than me? And I don't remember where I figured it out from, but I was like, oh, it started back here so that I would do a lot of trauma therapy to kind of deal with whatever was back there so I can come into present day.
I feel like. On the negative side, it kind of made me not as trusting of coaches that have these programs. because everybody will sell you the dream. And then oftentimes when you get into it, it's a nightmare, you know? like I've had different programs, people try to sell me on. And then I'm like, well, I want to speak to the, I want to speak to the person who's running this.
And if they wouldn't get on the call with me, I'm like, nope, I'm not doing it. Cause I'm like, if you're not going to get on a call with me while I'm trying to buy it, why are you going to actually get on a call with me when you're selling it? When we're like, when we're working together, you know? So it, it kind of made me untrusting.
But at the same time, what it has done, it has made me a better coach for my clients. It has made me be, I sell with even more integrity, like they know, like I don't say limited spaces. No, there's unlimited spaces, but I mean, the window is closing and it's closed, you know? It has made me tell people, no, I don't pay, I don't help people like you.
Like if I'm on a, um, we do like a, uh, we call office hours when I'm selling my course, when people come in and they're asking questions and they say, do you help with this? I say, no. Do you help with this? No. Do you have experience with this? No. I can't help you with this, but I can help you with that. And I've been on these calls with hundreds of people and the chat is just like, wow, you are honest.
And I'm like, I'm not going to lie to you to get you to buy from me. And you're not going to have success because I can't help you. But if you need help with this, this, this, this, this, this, this, I'm your girl. And. I have just seen my community just buy more, invest more, grow more, and trust me more because I am very open, honest, and authentic.
And if somebody comes to me wanting, like I had a client earlier today and she came to me for like three months with, to help with X and every time she comes to the call, she's talking about ABC and I'm like, Hey, let's go back to X, this is why you came. And she goes, Oh yeah. So I'm constantly making sure that like, I'm giving my clients what they need.
Versus whatever the idea of the month is. And I feel like it's made me a better coach.
Eman Ismail: I love that you said that and it made me think about how, I'm, I'm very cautious about who I work with as well, because I work with a lot of course creators and a lot of coaches. And so one of the first things I need to check out before someone's becomes a client is how are you selling your stuff?
What are you selling? You know, are your people happy? And it can be difficult. It can be difficult when someone comes and it's, I found myself in a situation actually where I didn't realize until we got deep into the project that I didn't like the way that they did some things. And so it was really difficult.
Cause I'm like, I'm in the middle of this now they've paid me and I have to do the best job that I can. But I also don't want to be dishonest or help sell something that is not, you said is being sold. And so, yeah, that was interesting. I navigated it the kind of the best way that I could. But now I'm even more cautious about the coaches and the course creators that I work with.
Hmm.
Keenya Kelly: Cause you just like you, you want to operate in integrity. And if you're causing me not to,
Eman Ismail: Yeah.
Keenya Kelly: We got a problem.
Eman Ismail: We've got a big problem. We've got a big problem.
You, you know, you were talking earlier on about your TikTok blowing up. and I just want to give the listener, uh, a picture of what that actually means. You have half a million followers on your TikTok. Half a million. It's amazing, amazing and insane and amazing.
So I just wanted to drop in that piece of context firstly. So, you know, put some respect on Keenya's name. But in terms of the kind of choices that you were making in your business after you decided to, to just trust yourself more and, you know, make your own decisions independently, how did your business change or grow, because of that kind of self trust?
Keenya Kelly: would say it, first of all, I'm happier. My team is happier because all of my integrity has now spilled into everything that I do. Like I had something happen recently. We were interviewing a potential social media manager from El Salvador. And during the call, my assistant is from Philippines. So she has an accent.
And so I just listened with grace and this girl's from El Salvador. And so my assistant's asking her a question and she's given her the stank face of like, what? What are you saying? What? She's being rude. And I, she did it twice. And I said, let's pause really quickly. I said, Hey, so, and I started explaining to her, we really like you.
You love your credentials, but I don't appreciate how you are handling my assistant.
Eman Ismail: Mm.
Keenya Kelly: And the girl was like, and my assistant just kind of put her head down and she does it when she doesn't know what to do. And of course we didn't move forward with the girl. And the next day my assistant was like, thank you for doing that.
And I was like, nobody will ever disrespect you. For anybody in our company. Right. And, but that's like all the lessons that I've learned about how to be a good is like, this is part of that too, you know?
So it, uh, it definitely made me happier.We're making more money strategically. Like instead of me doing all of these things to make money, we have focused and on two things to make us money. And we're going in on those two things to make us money. Like I had a coach who wanted up the previous coach. He wanted me to create this course and make it evergreen. And I was like, I don't feel right about that because social media change is too much to make it evergreen. And so it took me two years. And finally, I just created a mini course on branding with video and it's like, there's not a whole lot that changes with that.
It's the same. And so now we've got a chat bot AI specialist that's building all this stuff to make it ever to do all these evergreen things, which is going to make us so much money. And my team is like, I'm talking to them about, hey, when June comes around, you're only going to be working two days, USA time, and you're going to be working your hours the other days.
And you're never going to work another Friday ever again.
Eman Ismail: Oh, I love that.
Keenya Kelly: You know, but I, I had to have these, like, I can make these decisions. I can do this. I can trust me. I I'm smart. And, and then I started to associate with people who affirm me, right. Who are like, girl, you are this, this. And like, I affirmed them all day long, but I started to find people who, when I went to them with, so they could say, girl, yeah, you right about this. You right about that. Instead of me paying for a coach to tell me what they think I should do. I'm like bringing it to them. And then my, my friends are like affirming me, entrepreneur friends.
Eman Ismail: You almost answered my next question, which was now that you're not, now that you're not, I'm going to ask it just in case you have more to say on it. Now that you're not going to coaches for answers, how do you make decisions in your business? Like what is your decision making process?
Keenya Kelly: So, first things first. I try to go back to what I know from the past, that's one thing. Then I will, I'll go to our chat, the chat that has the, the community of people from like a previous mastermind. I'll say, hey guys, I'm thinking about this. What do y'all think? And I'm not going to go with whatever they say 100%, but I'm like, I just want to see what are they saying?
Then if I still have to ruminate on it, then I'll take it to a real close, trusted friend. And no matter what I decide, I will then take it to the Holy spirit. If it's something that really needs to have, I need some guidance. I will go, God, I got to make this decision. Can you talk to me more about it?
Nine, listen, 99. 999999 percent of the time I will get an answer. Either it's right, it's wrong, or there's some tweaks. You know, I'll have like a dream at night. I'll be cooking dinner and I'll hear something. I'll go, what? I was like, how I heard to get on TikTok, I heard it. And I was like, that doesn't make sense, you know?
So I'll, I'll talk to my peers and all that, but final decisions, I go, God, is this what I should do? And then he'll talk to me. And then before I choose to do it, I'll ask for multiple confirmations. And I, that's how I make it.
Eman Ismail: Hmm. I love that you said that because I have the same decision making process. Yeah, uh, exact everything you said, and I just want to touch on the last point, which is, yeah, whenever I have decisions to make in my business that I'm struggling to make, there's a specific prayer that we have, as Muslims that is specifically for making difficult decisions.
And it's basically, the prayer is basically, God, you know, and I know not, so, you know, guide me to make the right decision, the one that's best for me in this life, and the next life, and, if it's, if it's not good for me, if it's good for me, then bring me closer to it, and if it's not good for me, then, uh, keep me away from it, and replace it with something better.
That is me paraphrasing.
Keenya Kelly: Yeah.
Eman Ismail: But I love it so much because whenever I'm struggling, I'm like, okay, I go pray the prayer and I go pray that prayer. And then no matter what happens next, I know that I have the confidence to, to deal with it. I already sought the advice of the, the only person I needed to really, really seek that advice from.
And so whatever happens next, I'm like, I'm cool. I'm done. I did what I need to do on my side and I'm ready for it. Let's go. Made the decision. Let's go. Let's do it.
Keenya Kelly: Exactly. I'm like the creator of the universe. I'm like, I'm pretty sure they got the answer. You know what I mean? So I'll go to peers and all that, but in all be all it's like, what do you have to say? Cause your answer is better than any of our answers, you know.
Eman Ismail: Yes, and I think the most helpful thing about this as well in like seeking, seeking answers in prayer is that even if things don't go how you want them to, because I sought that answer in prayer, I'm like, well, this is, this, I'm going to learn something from it. If this, if the outcome wasn't what I wanted it to be, that's maybe just because I don't understand what there is to learn here, what there is for me to understand, to figure out how this is going to help me, how it's going to further me.
And so I can, I can trust that maybe on the surface, it, it doesn't, it wasn't what I wanted it to be, but it's going to be better than what I thought it was going to be. So like, you know, just stick with it, work on it, whether it's pivot or change or whatever. And I think that's one of the things that really helped me actually create this podcast because of that perspective of, of really nothing being a mistake. Of things being, lessons and education and things that we can take from. I think it really helps you move forward in business and to be able to get over those, hurdles easier as well.
Keenya Kelly: agree. Mm hmm. I agree.
Eman Ismail: Yes. Okay. this has been so, it's been so fantastic talking to you. Uh, thank you so much for sharing everything that you have.
I would love to know what you want people listening to go away with what do you want them to learn from your mistake?
Keenya Kelly: Um,
I would say that we all have an instinct, we all have a gut. Yes, we all can learn from everybody. Even as you guys are listening to the show, you're learning from me and all the things. But we all have that gut feeling, that instinct that they call it mothers into a women's intuition, like, or whatever men have, you know, we all have the same thing.
And I feel like that if you're going to build a business or even in life that the number one person you have got to trust first is you, you, got to give yourself permission to make good, good choices, not so good choices. But don't put so much emphasis into what everybody else thinks, what everybody else believes, what everybody else is marketing you to or selling or whatever, because at the end of the day, it still ends with you.
When you have a, when you have to pay or when you have to do the thing, you still have to do it. And I would encourage you to, to trust that and get some people, entrepreneur friends that you love them and you trust. And these are people who will help you come to an answer, not give you an answer, but help you come to an answer.
Eman Ismail: Yeah. Heavy on the getting support and advice from some people you trust.
I made the mistake recently of, I kind of just like threw a question out there on Threads. It was something I was struggling with business wise and I was like, you know, what do you do when XYZ? And the next day, as I'm reading through the comments, I realized my mistake.
Like, why would you ever ask the internet for business advice? Because that, it was, it was just the silliest thing I could have done. And it was just a really great reminder that, first of all, gosh, there are so many like different opinions on one topic. So you really got to make sure that you're talking to people who, who know. They know, you know, they know what it's, what they're talking about on this, on whatever specific issue that you're asking them about. And then also you really do need to get advice from people that you trust. And also people that know not just your business, but your values and how you operate and your goals and your, you know, your objectives, your perspective, all that stuff matters.
Cause that changes the advice that you're going to get. And so I, the question that I asked threads very stupidly was about the podcast and I was like, what am I doing? So I took that question and I posted it in the Slack community, for the HubSpot podcast network that I'm in, and I got the most amazing, thoughtful, strategic advice. And I just thought, wow, imagine if I just, yeah, it's such a big difference. And imagine if I'd just gone, oh, you know, these people tell me I should do this. It was, and I knew in my bones, I was like, oh, that's, that's, that's not a good answer. That's not what I'm looking for. And I went to the right people and I was like, yes.
Yes, this is what I was looking for. Be careful who you get your advice
Keenya Kelly: Yeah, for sure. Cause everybody has an opinion. Doesn't mean that this is the people you should listen to.
Eman Ismail: Exactly. Exactly. Thank you so much for your time, Keenya. Where can people find you if they want to stay connected?
Keenya Kelly: So I'm on all socials under my name, Keenya Kelly, K E E N Y A K E L L Y. My website is Keenyakelly. com. I'm pretty much, if you type Google Keenya Kelly, you're going to get pages of all the things that you connect with me on LinkedIn included.
Eman Ismail: Yes, and I'm going to put those in the show notes as well so you can find them easily.
Keenya Kelly: Thanks Keenya.
Yay.
Eman Ismail: If you love this convo with Keenya, you'll love the one I had with Mai-kee Tsang. It's episode 21 of this podcast and it's called Idolizing and Pedestalizing Coaches and Mentors. We talk about the dangers of idolizing coaches, the importance of setting personal boundaries, and the negative effects of high pressure coaching tactics.
Mai-kee also shares her personal transition from people pleaser to trauma conscious leadership coach. And she talks about how we can create healthy relationships and boundaries with the people we look to for guidance. Oh, and you should also check out episode seven, which is my interview with Tarzan Kay.
Now Tarzan describes herself as being an ex high pressure tactics coach who has since dismantled her seven figure empire and chosen to do business and coaching in a very different way. Those two interviews should keep you busy until the next episode of Mistakes That Made Me, which will be my annual 2024 year in review. And boy, do I have some stories for you.
That episode will be out on the 7th of January. So make sure you subscribe to this podcast so you get notified as soon as it airs. I can't wait to share it with you.
If you're taking a break from work right about now, I hope you have a lovely holiday and I'll be back in the new year.
Speak to you then.
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It exists to help make your email marketing easier, faster, and more fun. So you can focus on what works and what actually grows your business. You can take the quiz right now at emancopyco. com slash quiz. That link is also in the show notes. If you'd prefer to just click.