Episode #21: Idolising & Pedestalising Coaches & Mentors

Interview
Written By Studio Elias

Mai-kee Tsang – a Sustainable Visibility Mentor and Podcast Guesting Strategist – shares her biggest business mistake: pedestaling the leaders she’s learnt from.

In this interview, she talks about the dangers of idolising coaches, the importance of setting personal boundaries, and the negative effects of high-pressure coaching tactics.

Mai-kee also shares her personal transition from people-pleaser to trauma-conscious leadership coach, and how we can create healthy relationships and boundaries with the people we look to for guidance.

 
 

Listen to the Episode

 
 

Show notes

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  • Eman Ismail: I am currently a little bit obsessed with the scammy side of the coaching world. To be clear, I fully believe in coaching. I've had some amazing coaches. I've paid thousands for coaching programmes and masterminds, and I don't think I've ever regretted a single purchase. I also have my own programme. So I'm not talking about legitimate coaches and legitimate coaching programmes here. I'm talking about the dark, scammy, culty side of the coaching world.

    I just finished binging Escaping Twin Flames on Netflix, which, granted, is definitely more cult than coaching, but the Twin Flame Universe did start off as a coaching programme. I have personally heard stories from people who feel they've been defrauded by coaches, who've been pushed into putting thousands of dollars onto their credit card so they can join programmes they can't actually afford, who've made bad business decisions because they felt pressured to take the advice of their coach.

    This had me thinking a lot about why we do things in our business that we don't want to do simply because a business coach has told us to. Has that ever happened to you? Because it's definitely happened to me. Your coach advises you to do something that doesn't quite sit right with you, but you do it anyway. Why? How? When we're grown adults who are capable of making our own decisions.

    I think the reason for this is threefold. Now, there are probably more reasons, but here are the three that come to mind for me. The first part is that we trust our coaches. We trust that they know what they're talking about and we trust that the advice they're giving us will actually work. 

    The second part is that we don't trust ourselves, especially in those early days of business. We don't trust ourselves to make the right decision. That's why if we're not always checking in with a coach, we're checking in with our peers in a WhatsApp or Slack group anytime there's a business decision to be made. 

    The third part is that we don't just believe our coaches know more than us. They convince us they know more than us. That is a byproduct of their authority-building efforts. We have to believe that to buy into them, right? And so when it's time to take a coach's advice, we will usually do what they tell us to, even if it doesn't quite feel right for our business.

    We end up having this codependent relationship and our ability to think critically is sometimes impeded. And yet, a lot of that has to do with the marketing tactics that some coaches use—not all, some coaches. Check out my interview with Tarzan Kay to find out more about that. Like all of us, Mai-kee Tsang is someone who really looked up to her coaches and mentors. That adoration led her to doing things she wasn't proud of and ended up causing her emotional and psychological harm.

    Mai-kee Tsang: He didn't tell me to do it, but it was always celebrated when I did. On a sales call, if I managed to get someone to cry. Yeah, it's to heighten the emotional state so they're more susceptible to saying yes to you to help you get out that state. So he broke down why it works and I hated doing it, but at the time, I felt like apparently, this is how it's done. Okay.

    Eman Ismail: On today's show, I'm speaking to Mai-kee Tsang, the Sustainable Visibility® Mentor and podcast guesting strategist, about how idolising and pedestalising the leaders she learned from harmed her, but then went on to teach her how to trust her own decision making abilities, uncover her personal and business values, and understand how she could make an impact in the world.

    Mai-kee Tsang: There is such a thing as parasocial relationships, where it feels like there is a relationship that's actually one-sided. And I think that's the problem that can come with the fandom approach to appreciating someone's work. So for me, I've very much been very conscious of using the language. I don't say I look up to someone because when you do, you're creating an actual contrast, like the distance between you, that if someone is up above you, that means you're below them, quite literally with this language.

    And so what I've done instead is what you've alluded to is I say I look to them because I'm looking to people with respect. Not admiration either, because to me admiration's kind of in that same era of fandom. I'm like, nope, I want to be someone who really respects them for the work they do. And to me, that's been really helpful.

    Eman Ismail: Welcome to Mistakes That Made Me, the podcast that asks extraordinary business owners to share their biggest business mistake so you know what not to do on your road to success. Mistakes That Made Me is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.

    My name's Eman Ismail, and I'm an email strategist and copywriter for online business owners like you at emancopyco.com. I’m a podcast lover, a pizza binger, a proud mama of two, and I have this radical idea that if maybe us business owners were a little less guarded and a lot more open about the mistakes we've made, we could help each other grow a business that brings us more joy and less regret.

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    Plus, With the HubSpot for Startups programme, you can save up to 90% off your first year. I'll admit, that 90% off sounds a bit too good to be true, but unlike that majestic and totally fictitious unicorn, HubSpot for Startups is totally real. To see if you're eligible to save on HubSpot and take your growth to new heights, visit hubspot.com/startups.

    A little trigger warning. We do very briefly touch on the topic of sexual harassment in this conversation, so if that's something you don't want to hear about right now, it might be best to listen in another time.

    Mai-kee Tsang: So hi, everyone. My name is Mai-kee Tsang. I use she/her pronouns. And in a nutshell, I help human-first business owners to go from hidden gem to heard and hired for their work in the world. And I do this by helping them guest on aligned podcasts, building intentional relationships, and practising Sustainable Visibility®.

    Eman Ismail: I'm so glad you said that phrase because you coined this phrase, right? Sustainable Visibility®

    Mai-kee Tsang: Oh, yeah, not just coined—I trademarked that. [laughs] 

    Eman Ismail: Yes.

    Mai-kee Tsang: Back in 2021.

    Eman Ismail: So tell us about Sustainable Visibility®. What does that mean?

    Mai-kee Tsang: Absolutely. The beauty of this is that we can define it ourselves because the reason why it came about in the first place is because I noticed that a lot of visibility conversations, especially back in 2020, when I was talking about this a lot more, it felt very one track. It felt very, just put yourself out there, and that's all you need to do. And don't get me wrong, there is definitely a part to play in taking action. But I really felt that it often dismissed and invalidated the genuine struggles that especially people with more marginalised identities have.

    And I am someone who—I have a combination of marginalised identities as well as dominant ones, depending on which perspective you're looking at. And I know for a fact that following that advice alone has genuinely harmed my business and also me as a person. And so I really wanted to take a step back to really factor in more things. What is it that helps us be visible, but also helps us stay in that spotlight enough for our businesses to keep growing, for it to sustain itself without really compromising our values, our personal capacity, because some people are parents, some people have chronic illnesses, there are some people who have X, Y, Z, like fill in the blank.

    And so this approach is really much about finding that sweet spot between what works for you and what works for your business. They can totally go together. They don't have to be one or the other, which is the beautiful thing.

    Eman Ismail: I love that so much because I have people who join my course Like A Boss and there's a module on visibility and marketing yourself. And the question I always get is, "Well, I don't know if I want to be on stages and I don't know if I want to be doing millions of webinars and all that kind of thing. So is there a way for me to still be visible?" And so how would you answer that question?

    Mai-kee Tsang: Yes. Oh, I love this question because when I've taught workshops, when I ran my own event around this actually, just recently at the time of this recording, I loved presenting my visibility expansion model, and it's basically a circular model. I'm going to try my very best to describe it, but basically, in a nutshell, I define the difference between private and public visibility, as well as personal and platform.

    So, basically, public visibility is when you're seen out there, and it's not necessarily—basically, it's not gated. There's no gated way to get to you. So if someone can find you from a blog post that you've written, for example. And private visibility is when you're seen by selected people. So for example, a Zoom call that you have with someone. You can have a brilliant one-on-one conversation, but no one else knows about it. And yet people, they don't really count it as visibility.

    But to me, I'm like that counts because that one conversation could mean that person works with you as a client, they could become an affiliate partner, they could become a peer, they can be your greatest advocate because you are in the right room, even if it's just one other person. And so I really try to dispel that myth that seems to be out there, that visibility only counts if it's on the big, bold stages. That is one version.

    But private visibility I feel like is really overlooked. And when I share this with people, they're like, "Oh, I've been doing a lot more than I've given myself credit for," which is true. Yes, you absolutely have.

    And then the quick difference between platform and personal visibility is personal is when it's on your turf. So this is your social media platforms, this is your website, this is your email list, it's all on your terms, right? So you typically would work on this type of visibility when you are taking care of the people who have entered your world already. Because you don't want people to leave as soon as they come, right? You want them to stay. You want them to circle in your universe of work.

    And platform visibility is what, again, most people think about, is when you get in front of other people's audiences. So that's podcast guesting, being on someone else's stages, being published in publications. There is definitely a need for both, but it really does depend on what you need for your business. What does your business model require? How much volume do you actually need? And what degree of trust do you need with your people before they buy from you? So it's taking into account all of these factors.

    And honestly, when I present this model, people, genuinely, they're like, "Oh, okay, I don't actually need to do that big bad thing." And when I say bad, I don't mean actually bad, but I mean the big bold thing.

    Eman Ismail: Yeah.

    Mai-kee Tsang: Because I feel like there's often this narrative that, "Oh, if you don't go big, go home. Go big or go home," or, "You're playing it too small", or I think my biggest irk, the thing that irks me is like, "Oh, you're playing it too safe." And as someone who is a trauma survivor, you bet your honey buns I'm gonna play it safe, but that doesn't mean I'm small.

    Eman Ismail: Wow. That is so powerful. "I'm gonna play it safe, but that doesn't mean I'm small." That is so powerful. Wow. I mean, I've never thought of that. But I do know that feeling of when someone thinks you're playing small and that almost like pressure to do something bigger, to be bigger, to get out of your comfort zone. Someone actually—oh, I don't know if I should say. Okay, I'm gonna say it. I'm worried that they might be listening. No, I don't think they are. [laughs]

    Mai-kee Tsang: [laughs] It's your podcast, Eman. You got this.

    Eman Ismail: I know. [laughs]

    Mai-kee Tsang: They know, right? You can do it.

    Eman Ismail: Okay, so someone sent me a message, and it was—I don't know this person, but I know that it came from a good place, and it was supposed to be a compliment because I know nothing but kindness from this person, okay? But they said something like, it was just this line, "You are so underrated." And I was offended.

    Mai-kee Tsang: I would be.

    Eman Ismail: Okay, good. Okay, I'm so glad. I'm so glad. And I can't quite describe. I struggle to understand, but also communicate to you why it offended me. If I can try to put it into words, it's almost as if, like, I'm not as big—whatever that means—as you expect me to be, almost like I'm not good enough.

    Mai-kee Tsang: Yes, that's exactly the message I received if I was in your shoes.

    Eman Ismail: Okay, thank you. And I haven't replied to it to this day because I promised myself—and this happened months ago. I promised myself stepping into my 30s, I'm not interested—I've always been a big people-pleaser. I'm not interested in trying to please people anymore. I'm trying my best to move away from that. I'm also not interested in saying things that I don't mean. And so I didn't know how to respond. I didn't want to say thank you because I'm not thankful. [laughs] 

    Mai-kee Tsang: I'm resentful if anything. [laughs]

    Eman Ismail: I just didn't know how to respond, and so I thought, "You know what? I'm not going to. I'm gonna remove the pressure of responding and I'm just not going to respond." And I had to sit with it for a while. And, again, I came back to that. I don't think they meant it in a bad way at all. It was a compliment from them. From them, they thought they were saying something really nice to me and I was so offended.

    And I think sometimes that might be just like a personal thing because I have struggled under the weight of people's expectations and goals for me. That's something I've always struggled with. But just hearing you say that, "I might play it safe, but that doesn't mean I'm small," it took me back to that moment where this person accidentally made me feel really small because of their expectations of how I should be playing or how I should be seen.

    Mai-kee Tsang: Can I ask you a question?

    Eman Ismail: Yeah.

    Mai-kee Tsang: Would you have felt the same way you do now if someone said, "Oh, you're such a hidden gem?"

    Eman Ismail: Yeah. To be honest, I would. Yeah, absolutely.

    Mai-kee Tsang: Okay, I'm gonna take that off my messaging now. [laughs]

    Eman Ismail: [laughs] You know what it is, is that—okay I feel like maybe that's the wrong answer, but-

    Mai-kee Tsang: No, no, no, no.

    Eman Ismail: -you know what it is even about that, it's the idea that, hidden to who? Hidden to you in your world, but not in my world. Same with this person who sent me this message, I might be small or unknown in your world, but I'm the center of my own world. [laughs]

    Mai-kee Tsang: Yep, you are the sun in your universe, everything revolves there. [laughs]

    Eman Ismail: Right. [laughs] I don't know, but I just—yeah, it's so bizarre because I did not intend—I wasn't gonna share this. It just came to me from what you said because I found that so powerful.

    Mai-kee Tsang: Do you know what's funny? I loved learning about the planets and everything, and you know the sun is technically a star. You're the star of your own universe, I'm just gonna lean into that more.

    Eman Ismail: Exactly.

    Mai-kee Tsang: Yeah. I just want to say that you are not alone because if I had received that message, I would have felt offended or like, "Oh, I didn't meet your expectation that I never asked for," you know?

    Eman Ismail: Yeah, exactly.

    Mai-kee Tsang: Seriously, I'm gonna change that messaging on my website. [laughs]

    Eman Ismail: Oh, don't because of me.

    Mai-kee Tsang: No, no, no, no.

    Eman Ismail: Maybe I'm just weird.

    Mai-kee Tsang: No, no, no, no, no.

    Eman Ismail: Maybe I'm just oversensitive. [laughs]

    Mai-kee Tsang: No, no. Okay, first of all, I'm a highly sensitive person, so preach to the choir. And also, because I wasn't sure how I felt about it myself. So just to hear it reflected from someone else's perspective, I'm like, "Yeah."

    Eman Ismail: Interesting.

    Mai-kee Tsang: But instead now, instead of "Go from hidden gem to XYZ," why can't it just be, "Become more heard and hired," you know? So I don't have to pin them as if they're hidden. So, thank you for the feedback. [laughs]

    Eman Ismail: You're welcome. It's so interesting how important messaging is because I've been looking for a speaking coach. And this might be slightly off-topic, but I've been looking for a speaking coach. And the reason I want a speaking coach is because I heard Rachel Rodgers once say, it might even have been in her book, like why do we only invest in the things we're not good at? We will pay for lessons for this and for that if we think we're not good at something and we want to get better, but what about the things we're already great at? Why do we not invest more in becoming even better at the things that were already great in? And I was like, wow, wow.

    And so I wanted to pick something that I felt like that was the case and I am due to do a big in-person live talk at ATOMICON later this year in Newcastle for anyone who's in or around Newcastle. But I decided that for ATOMICON, I want a speaking coach. But the message on all the websites of the speaking coaches that I've been on is, "Get over your fear of public speaking." And I instantly disconnect. Well, no, I'm not afraid of public speaking.

    It's so interesting how the wrong word—

    Mai-kee Tsang: Can be enough.

    Eman Ismail: Yeah, it can be enough for someone to just completely disconnect. And I guess I find that—I'm a copywriter, so I'm going to find language fascinating. But yeah, okay, going back to what we were talking about. I've heard you talk about the difference between exposure and visibility, and this was fascinating to me. Tell us a bit more about this difference between exposure and visibility.

    Mai-kee Tsang: Well, it's my take on it, so each to their own on this. I think it always irked me whenever I received an invitation to be a part of something, be it a bundle, or a summit, or speak at XYZ, and in lieu of payment, they would often highlight, oh, you'll get exposure to blah blah blah blah blah, like, insert number here that's supposed to be impressive. And I'm like, I don't want exposure.

    It's probably because I read a lot of tabloid magazines when I was growing up, like especially as a teenager when I was sitting in my family takeaway when they were working, I would sometimes sit in the waiting area where some customers would be sometimes, and I would pick up the magazines, and there was often a mugshot or a photo taken of a celebrity, like Celebrity X, and it would always be without their consent. And it would always have a language like, "Oh, insert celebrity name exposed for their shopping habits," or whatever, whatever.

    And so for me, I probably just developed quite a—I just hated the association with the word. So whenever I found it in my business work, like, "Oh, you can get exposure to this and that," to me, that felt very non-consensual. It felt like I was being exposed by paparazzi that I didn't ask for nor want.

    So whenever people use that language with me, if I feel aligned with the opportunity but not the language, I often invite them for a conversation to see that we're still actually on the same page and it's just that word that's turning me off. Because like how you said earlier, just the wrong words can turn you away. It's the same for me. But if I feel aligned for the opportunity itself, depending on how I'm feeling and if I have the capacity for it, I would open up a conversation with them, see if they're open to a quick call, like 10 15 minutes, just to kind of open their perspective or provide an insight, if they're open to it, of a potential shift in language because of the negative impact that it actually might have on not just myself.

    Because whenever I mention this, the difference between exposure and visibility, I often get people saying to me, "Yes, I feel that too. I don't want to be exposed. I want to be seen. I want to be acknowledged and embraced for the work I do in the world and the stories that come with it. But I don't want to be exposed for it." So it feels like, to me, I feel like there's just an element of consent that's often missing through the language of exposure.

    Eman Ismail: Yeah, no, I totally agree, and I feel like that word creates imagery of someone being caught naked, you know.

    Mai-kee Tsang: I literally thought of that.

    Eman Ismail: You're just completely naked in front of everyone-

    Mai-kee Tsang: Exactly.

    Eman Ismail: -and you're just completely exposed like, wait, what? I don't want this. No one wants this.

    Mai-kee Tsang: And that's never a nice feeling. Whenever we think of the word exposure, when our mind goes to that, again, we want to hide from that. Right? We're covering our private bits, as my mum would say. She'd call it our private parts. [laughs] We'd be covering that because we didn't want it on show. We didn't want it taken away from us. We actually want to be in relative control and feel grounded with the things that we're sharing.

    Eman Ismail: Agreed. I totally agree.

    You also identify as a trauma-conscious leadership coach. I think—no, I know some people roll their eyes when they hear people start talking about trauma, like, "Oh, here we go, everyone's traumatised, trauma, trauma, trauma." But I feel like I used to be one of those people until I really started to understand that first of all, trauma just means that you have experienced something deeply distressing or disturbing. Thank you Google for that definition. And when we define it like that, we have all experienced trauma in some way or another. You can't go through life without experiencing some kind of trauma, right?

    So first of all, if you check out at someone talking about trauma, just check back in [laughs] 'cause that's what we mean by this. But I want to understand, and I want to talk a little bit about what is this trauma-conscious work and what does it involve? Why is it important?

    Mai-kee Tsang: Yes, okay. So it was 2021, if not slightly earlier, a couple of months into 2020, when I listened to the advice of a mentor, and we can probably go deeper into that later, and it literally re-traumatised me because I was being visible in the wrong rooms because they pretty much advised me to bypass that "fear" but actually, it wasn't fear that they were asking me to bypass. They were asking me to bypass my own values, which I didn't realise at the time, it was in retrospect.

    And what had happened was that I was in the wrong room, and I genuinely felt exposed there. And I received unwanted attention of a sexual nature in my DMs. And I don't need to go into detail of how that was pretty much all it took to unravel me. And I thought to myself, "Wow, okay, I'm sure my mentor didn't—" they meant well at the time. But I didn't know how to make discerning decisions about when to listen and when not to. So I realised, oh gosh, this has actually stopped me from being visible. It has made me want to play small, actual small, and do my bare minimum because that's all I had the capacity for.

    And I realised that when I started sharing these experiences and going through my healing journey with a therapist and alternative healing modalities, I realised how much being a trauma survivor myself has really informed my own processes of how I speak with my community, how I work with my clients and collaborators. And I've always gotten such wonderful feedback of how next level I would go to make sure that they're okay in terms of my process and considerations, sensitivities, navigating soft spots and trigger points, and all of that stuff.

    And I realised, do you know what? I want to do this a bit more formally. I want to be a lot more intentional with this and not just use my own trauma survival story as my permission slip to claim that I can do this.

    Eman Ismail: Mm. That's so important.

    Mai-kee Tsang: Because I believe that credibility, there are two sides to it. One is when you have direct experience with something, but with that alone, without any formal training, you can easily get into the territory of simply projecting your stuff on other people. And I did not want to do that. So I got training to understand the impact of trauma and how it affects people.

    And the reason why I'm not trauma-trained—I want to be in the future, but I'm not right now—is because I'm not the person you go to to heal your trauma, but I am someone you can come to to help you work with that in the context of your business, in the context of visibility. So I'll have that additional space to be able to hold for you as you pretty much get to work with what you have. I'm not there to heal people with what they've gone through, but I am there to help understand it and hold space for it and help them again work with what they have. And without that training, I would have felt that I'm just using my own trauma survival story as my credibility factor, and I didn't want that on its own.

    Eman Ismail: Well firstly, I'm so sorry that happened. And secondly, thank you for sharing that. Third, so what you're talking about here is when you work with people to amplify their voice, to increase their visibility, you are able to acknowledge their trauma, any trauma they may have experienced, and how that might impact them as business owners as what they want to do, what they don't want to do, what they feel safe doing, what they may not feel safe doing.

    Mai-kee Tsang: It's very much a safety first, strategy second approach with me. And I remember there was someone who was inquiring about working with me, and they asked me about my qualification, not because they questioned it, but they were curious why, just like how you're asking me now, like, "Oh, why though?" And it's clear that this person in the past has been burned, has been let down, with people who say they are something, but they actually are something else.

    And so, again, it's one of those things that you can't cheat. It's one of those things that you can only ever feel it from me. I can plaster qualifications all day long, but if you genuinely don't feel safe enough with me to work with you on something that can be very vulnerable, can be very sensitive, then I wouldn't be your person if you feel like I can't provide that space.

    But it's one of those things, again, you can only ever truly feel with someone. And based on all of the clients I've had so far, especially, I find, those who have more marginalised identities, they've often been dismissed and invalidated for a lot of the characteristics and behaviours that actually come with who they are, they've often been dismissed about that, and it's really affected their visibility. They don't feel safe enough to do it because they have been told that it's not enough, they're not good enough.

    And I'm there not to just say the words, because if that's all it took, like, "Oh, you are good enough," then they wouldn't need me, right? But what they really want is the space to explore that. And that's something, again, I feel like it's a skill set that is nurtured. It's learnable. It's 100% learnable. And I feel like it's just really something that goes way beyond the title.

    Eman Ismail: I think this is fascinating. I think that this is really important for people who are in my position as a podcast host who is regularly interviewing people where sometimes really traumatic or difficult stuff comes up in conversation. And I think it's important for me to know how to navigate that without further hurting the person, especially because you don't want to exploit that trauma in the name of entertainment, you know? And I think that a lot of podcasts do that.

    Now, I ain't gonna name any names. I'm not gonna say any names, but if you follow me on Instagram, which you should be @emancopyco, you will know exactly which podcast I'm talking about 'cause I've said it there, but I'm not gonna say it here. There's a certain very, very popular podcast that I used to really—

    Mai-kee Tsang: I remember.

    Eman Ismail: Oh yeah. You remember.

    Mai-kee Tsang: Yeah, yeah I do. [laughs] 

    Eman Ismail: I loved this podcast so much, really enjoyed it, and then it just got to the point where it got really uncomfortable for me to be a listener. And I need you to understand how big this podcast is and so I don't know the host. [laughs] The host certainly doesn't know me. But I felt uncomfortable as a listener because it became clear to me that the one goal of this podcast host is to make his guests—oops. Okay. You may be able to guess now that I've said the gender, but is to make his guests cry, as if there's some kind of like—

    Mai-kee Tsang: Goal.

    Eman Ismail: As if it's an okay goal, as if there's some sort of success in making them emotional, as if because they've cried, they're going to open up and this is going to be such an amazing interview. No, actually you're just probably just re-traumatising the person. I really don't believe an interview is only great if a person cries. What a weird measure of success that is. And it got so uncomfortable for me to be a listener because I felt like the people were being exploited on this podcast.

    I couldn't keep listening. I had to stop listening. I felt physically uncomfortable listening to the show. And I am not the only person who said that because I was—I felt so validated. I was on LinkedIn recently and someone made a post about this particular podcast. And then a good few people said in the comments, "I don't like listening anymore because it feels like the only thing they want to do is make the guests cry." And I was like, "Oh my God, it's not just me. That actually is a thing." And it's so bizarre to me. And I think that we're in a very powerful role, important role. And there's so much safety to be created here.

    And I was on a podcast recently where, oh my God, we had the best interview and it's one of the best interviews I think I've ever done. It's such a great interview. But I never shared the interview because when we were in the green room, me and the podcast host were talking about something, which is not super personal, I wouldn't have been talking about it if it was super personal, but I didn't want it to be on the podcast. That's why I wasn't talking about it in the podcast recording. I was talking about it in the green room before we started recording.

    And then, actually, the podcast host took that information and put it into the main episode and it's part of the whole episode as the introduction to me, that kind of thing. And I was just like, "Oh, I didn't actually consent to that information being in the full podcast." And again, this isn't super personal information. You would never be able to figure out what it is because it's not personal for lots of people, but for me-

    Mai-kee Tsang: Even so.

    Eman Ismail: -it is. And so now that information's out there and it's like I don't wish I had the interview. That was a really great interview, and I felt exposed. And so I'm very aware that when I have people on this podcast, that my role here is important and the guest is also very important. Making sure they're comfortable is of the utmost importance to me.

    And one thing I guess I would love your advice on, which might be a bit selfish, but let me get your advice while you're here. I don't like giving my guests questions before the interview because I like it to be just a natural conversation like this. I don't want them to rehearse anything, but I also realised that for some people, number one, maybe they're neurodivergent and that is what they need from me or maybe it makes them feel unsafe or worried that I don't provide questions beforehand, even though I make it very clear I'm not here to expose anything or there are going to be no surprise crazy questions, that kind of thing. But how do I find that balance of making sure people feel comfortable and happy and safe whilst also maintaining a great, natural interview?

    Mai-kee Tsang: Good question, because I am also a blend, and I also like providing organic conversations on my podcast for The Quiet Rebels. And here's the thing, I'm always an advocate of giving people a choice. And I know, of course, that you do want to—you can share ahead of time and say, "Hey, so I love any Mistakes That Made Me podcast with guests to be as organic as possible, which is why I personally don't tend to provide questions upfront. However, if you're in a position where it makes you feel a lot more safer to know where this conversation can go, let me know."

    So you can tell them what your intentions are as to what not, why you don't like to provide it, but still giving them an option when you frame it, why you do it that way, can help them think that. Or if you genuinely don't want to, you could also say, "Is there anything I can do on my end to make you feel safe enough to have an organic conversation around the mistake that made you?"

    Eman Ismail: Okay, that's a good one. I like that. And I love the idea of giving them the option. I do ask in the guest intake form, which you'll know, "Is there anything you don't want to talk about?" And you'd be surprised how used that section of the form is and how people need that reassurance that we're not going to go in a certain direction, which of course I have no interest in doing if someone doesn't want to talk about something.

    That's a really great piece of advice. So thank you for that. And I think that's something that we can take as not just podcast hosts, but anyone who hosts anything or anyone. If you host people—okay, I think this is a really important conversation. It's also why I did one of your workshops. I can't remember what the name was though.

    Mai-kee Tsang: I was just about to say, you're really making me want to bring back the workshop that I ran, it's called Converse with Consent, and it's exactly this.

    Eman Ismail: Yes, I did that.

    Mai-kee Tsang: Helping hosts and—some are hosts—anyone who's a space holder, to provide a more safer, consensual space, and what actually goes in with that. So, yeah, all right, I might bring that back now. [laughs]

    Eman Ismail: Yeah. [laughs] Yeah, we need it. The people will be asking for it.

    Okay, Mai-kee, I want to move on to what I invited you here for. Are you ready?

    Mai-kee Tsang: Yeah.

    Eman Ismail: Okay, let's do it.

    Stick around. Don't go anywhere. We'll get right back to this episode after this quick break.

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    Mai-kee, What is the mistake that made you?

    Mai-kee Tsang: 100%, it was idolising and pedestalising the leaders I've learned from.

    Eman Ismail: Wow. Okay, so let's step back for a second and rewind a little bit. Set the scene for us. What was going on when you were pedestalising and idolising your teachers, your mentors, your coaches?

    Mai-kee Tsang: Yes. And I do want to say before I go into this, that for everyone who's listening right now who might actually feel like you're in the same boat, I just want to say that I want to come at this not at all from a pointing my fingers, shaming and blaming perspective. It's more of, again, we're learning from the mistakes and what we can do differently from that and how we can empower ourselves to be a lot more discerning with the decisions we make in our businesses. So I just want to give that off the bat. [laughs] 

    Eman Ismail: Yes. Love it. Little disclaimer.

    Mai-kee Tsang: Yes, disclaimer. All right. So I started my entrepreneurial journey since I was 22 and I got into this realm of business when I was 24 when I started this business right now. Okay. With some evolutions involved. But basically, at the very start, I was just fresh out of university. And I was meant to be studying—I was studying actually. I was studying for my degree in psychology as a Bachelor of Science at a university in London. And it was unfortunately due to a couple of traumatic experiences in my second year of uni that I was very compelled to learn how to take better care of my mental health as well as my physical health.

    And that is why I actually was also training. While studying my final year, I was also studying to become a holistic health coach. So that was my first ever business I ever ran. It kind of like encompassed emotional eating, confidence coaching, all of that good stuff. And it was around this time when I had a part-time job. And I was working in a coffee shop. I honestly miss being a barista sometimes. Honestly, I do genuinely judge when someone's making my coffee, I was like, "Excuse me, you didn't actually blast that steam wand. [laughs] You need to do this. Excuse me, you didn't flush out the coffee grounds from the last shot," whatever.

    Anyway, so whilst I was part-timing there, I spent my weekends volunteering at events, live events in London, and I was fascinated by the entrepreneurial world. And because I was so in a position to learn, I actually got an opportunity to volunteer at these events. So I got to see a lot more behind the scenes, and it was through this when I really started being connected to the people who ran the event, and I found my first mentor.

    It was a brilliant experience at the time. And that's when I actually got formal training for public speaking. So I actually got my public speaker training "done", or I got my first round of public speakers training quite early on in my career, and I loved the buzz of it. I loved the energy and all of that stuff, but there are a couple of things that I would find along the way that I just didn't agree with. Things like positioning yourself as a sought-after person by maxing out your friends list on Facebook, for example.

    Eman Ismail: Ugh, that's awful.

    Mai-kee Tsang: Yeah. And I literally just posted, it's been one year since I manually deleted 2,200 plus people from my list who somehow became my friend, and I was like, "I know I never said yes to a friend request for you," but I manually deleted over 2,000 people last year, and I just celebrated that milestone a couple days ago. [laughs]

    Eman Ismail: [laughs] Congratulations.

    Mai-kee Tsang: Thank you. It feels great. [laughs] But you can see, it feels very fake. That's one example. And then along the way, I started meeting more people. I networked. And I had also found who was going to be my future mentor. I actually was in their community of over 10,000 people, and there was a contest of seven days of overcoming your fear, whatever that means, right? And you need to record your progress in this group, label it day one to seven, and whoever wins gets the grand prize of being mentored by the leader for a year. You're listening to that person who stood out in front of 10,000 people.

    Eman Ismail: Wow.

    Mai-kee Tsang: Yes.

    Eman Ismail: That's amazing.

    Mai-kee Tsang: Thank you. I did things like I did a live stream when I took off my makeup and expressed my insecurities from when I was a teenager. I did things like I quit my day job as a barista during that week.

    Eman Ismail: Wow.

    Mai-kee Tsang: I know. [laughs]

    Eman Ismail: Oh my God, you really got into the challenge.

    Mai-kee Tsang: Yeah, I really did. Oh, because I so remember leaving the shopping centre that I worked in, because I worked at an independent chocolate cafe. And I remember still, I was out of uniform and I was sweaty and tired. I was like, "Oh my gosh, today's my last day." And, oh, my favourite out of them all was getting a bunch of people who were in corporate suits to dance to the Gangnam Style with me. [laughs] 

    Eman Ismail: No.

    Mai-kee Tsang: Yeah.

    Eman Ismail: Did they actually do it?

    Mai-kee Tsang: Yeah. And one of them got really into it and started doing some hip thrusts. I was like, "You go, man." [laughs]

    Eman Ismail: Oh, wow. Oh, wow.

    Mai-kee Tsang: Fantastic. Yes. Anyway, so I stood out a lot in this challenge. And the first four months of this year that I had won with this leader was mentorship. And then it turned into an internship because suddenly, he's—Oh, damn it, I just gave away the pronouns. He gave me the chance to be his right-hand person. And he had to scale very quickly because he went viral several times on YouTube and he just couldn't keep up with the pace. He had no systems, he had nothing in place, and I was there to build it from scratch with him from almost zero to six figures within that year.

    Eman Ismail: Wow.

    Mai-kee Tsang: Yeah. And I learned a lot of skills, a lot of them, a lot of them, and to this day, I do have a sense of gratitude because I feel like he really helped me learn how tenacious I can be, how quick I am to learn things. But, like many people, when you look back in retrospect, you can't help but cringe and feel even some shame or guilt around the practices that you were celebrated for that actually went completely against your values.

    Eman Ismail: Wow. Okay. I guess my next question is what are some of the things that you did, if you don't mind me asking that, that you felt uncomfortable with?

    Mai-kee Tsang: Okay, so similar to the host that you despise [laughs], that it was almost a marker of success. He didn't tell me to do it, but it was always celebrated when I did. On a sales call, if I managed to get someone to cry. Yeah.

    Eman Ismail: No. So this is a real thing, this is actually a thing?

    Mai-kee Tsang: Oh, yeah, it's a thing. It's a thing. It's to heighten the emotional state so they're more susceptible to saying yes to you to help you get out that state. So he broke down why it works, and I hated doing it, but at the time, I felt like, apparently, this is how it's done. Okay. What's so interesting about this is when I left—I left on the 1st of June 2018, which is the marker of like—I have a print made to celebrate this, and it's a Jim Carrey quote, which I'm looking at right now, and it says, "You can still fail at the things you don't want, so you might as well take a chance on doing what you love."

    Eman Ismail: Wow.

    Mai-kee Tsang: I have that marked. But what's so interesting is that, also, when I actually shared what I'm about to say next to other business owners who've been in the game for longer, they were like, "You shouldn't have been able to do that. You shouldn't have had to do that." So basically, he made me delete every single person I had connected with through the business, because I use my personal profile, and he-

    Eman Ismail: What?

    Mai-kee Tsang: -told me that he had a—Yeah. He had told me that he had a right over them and basically asked me to sever my connection with every single person.

    Eman Ismail: Stop it.

    Mai-kee Tsang: I'm not lying.

    Eman Ismail: Okay. Oh my gosh. You just transported me back to a place of, oh my gosh, that I don't even want to be at. What's wrong with some people? 'Cause someone did something—I mean it was so different, but similar but so different to me. This was years ago. Basically, I was planning to write a piece and I was like drafting it and I went into a group of women, I was in there for support, I went into that group and asked these women for I guess their experience and I told them I'm planning to write something and that kind of thing.

    Anyway, the owner of the group who was a business owner completely ripped into me, said I was not allowed to write this piece I'd been planning to write as like a catharsis thing. I absolutely could not because I was stealing something from her by asking people to share, by asking people in her group to share their experiences. I was so young and also so vulnerable, and it's such a vulnerable and emotional state that I am. 

    I believed this person and I was made to feel like I'd done something wrong—of course, I haven't done anything wrong—and couldn't—Well, I didn't write the piece because I was made to feel that I was no longer allowed because I'd done something wrong. And it's so funny what we will—now, looking back, I can see that it was just a complete insecurity and fear that you're going to do something amazing and great.

    Mai-kee Tsang: Yeah. Absolutely.

    Eman Ismail: Isn't that crazy? And I mean, I don't know in your case, but this person was so much older than me at that age. Again, I was so young, so vulnerable. And it doesn't occur to you that someone so successful and so much older than you can be afraid of your potential.

    Mai-kee Tsang: Mm. 100%. And I'm so sorry that happened to you, by the way.

    Eman Ismail: Thank you. It was awful at the time, but it's funny because people do things like this and take advantage of and bully people and then they forget all about it, and you will never forget. And I hear about what this person's up to and I just think, "You have forgotten and I will never forget."

    Mai-kee Tsang: Yeah, no, I did not forget this and neither did the people because there are some people who really connected with me because I was pretty much the mother of that business in the sense that I was the one who took care of everyone. And he admitted himself. His skill was lead generation, but he knew that he was—he said himself that he was crap at retention. He couldn't retain people. That was what I was for because I made people feel important because they were. Every single person who came to our community, they had importance. They were a human being that I cared for.

    And when some of them realised that I had unfriended them, they came back to me and said, "Mai-kee, what did I do wrong?" They thought that they did something wrong.

    Eman Ismail: That's so sad.

    Mai-kee Tsang: And I was like, "Oh no, this was—" I know. And I was like, "You did nothing wrong. This was the condition that I was placed under because I have left the team." And what's so interesting, Eman, is that, you know how I do Cuppa Catch Ups™, which, for context, for those who are listening who've never heard of it before, every single month, I send an invitation to my email list because I have one hour that I split into three 20-minute calls. And I just want to connect with people in my community, simple as that.

    There was someone from that era of my entrepreneurial journey who booked that call and she told me, "Mai-kee, I don't know if you remember me." And I was like, "Of course I remember you." And she said, "I've been following you ever since during that time when you were in Community X. I have seen you create everything you've created in your business," and she told me she had volunteered to help out with Community X purely on a volunteer basis.

    And she told me the heart-wrenching story that she was simply communicating when she was going to be unavailable because she had to go back to her home country because of some ill relatives. And they cut her off and said, "That's not acceptable. This is showing lack of commitment, X, Y, Z."

    Eman Ismail: Sorry, this was a voluntary role, right? [laughs]

    Mai-kee Tsang: Yeah. [laughs] Like, excuse me. One second. What conditions can you put on someone who's volunteering their time-

    Eman Ismail: I'm confused.

    Mai-kee Tsang: -to help? And then she saw for herself why I left. She probably got an inkling because obviously, I could never publicly announce in Community X why I could leave. It's always been a hush-hush thing. But for the people that I've made friends within that community, who kind of followed me since then, they got the real story. But it was never a shamey story. I was like, look, my version of success and his version of success—very different. He's the epitome of hustle culture. And if that gets you to where you want to go, you do you.

    When I drew the line, it was when I wanted to go on an anniversary trip with my partner. And I've been with my partner right now for like 13 years, 14 this year. And he said to me, "Yeah, of course, you can. You know you still have to check in on the community while you're there, right?" And I was like, "That's not exactly a holiday." He was like, "Well, that's what it means to be successful on our team." And I was like, "No, thank you. I do not want this." [laughs]

    Eman Ismail: Oh my gosh. I mean, it's so sad because this is someone that you looked up to.

    Mai-kee Tsang: Yes.

    Eman Ismail: So tell me about that journey of like—because you talked about idolising your leaders, your teachers, coaches, mentors, I think that's something we all do. But talk about that journey of him going from someone that you really looked up to, to someone who is bullying you, intimidating you, making you do things that you don't want to do. How did that feel? How did you get from A to B?

    Mai-kee Tsang: Well, I think I needed to know it wasn't just in my head. Because I think we can be so quick to judge ourselves. Oh, maybe I'm just being overly sensitive. Maybe that's actually how business is done because I'm inexperienced. We are so quick to blame ourselves for it. And I think that's the difference between taking blame for something that's not yours and taking responsibility for the role you had in it.

    And I think for the longest time, I took the blame that was not mine to take. So it was when I started communicating with my new clients who actually became friends of mine and they shared their wealth of business experience that I clearly didn't have. And when I told them about what happened because we knew of each other because of the London events space. This space is small. This world of small. People know each other. And when I told him what Community X Leader had done, he was like, "Wait, he can't do that."

    Eman Ismail: No.

    Mai-kee Tsang: When I revealed how old he was, the Community X Leader, he was like, "Oh," and he started laughing. "Oh, that's why then. He's young himself. He doesn't know any better." And to me, that felt like, "Oh, okay," it's a bit of a sigh of relief that it wasn't actually in my head, it was actually wrong. And I think my client and friend, he helped me start trusting myself more that when something is up, there's a reason.

    When I'm feeling that disconnect in my chest—because I am someone who feels things very deeply, emotionally, and sometimes physically. So you know when you said you felt physically sick to your stomach for a couple of things? I remember there was a phrase I used to be able to tolerate when I worked for Community Leader X, but since really stepping into my truth and really being grounded in my values, when I hear this phrase, which I'll reveal in just a second, it literally makes me feel sick to my stomach.

    It's a real shame for me because I had gotten into a big PR programme, and it was through an affiliate that I trusted a lot. And I was on one of those special Q&A calls where you can get coaching on one of your pitches. I constantly heard the advice, "You need to twist the knife more. You need to make it so painful that they have no choice but to hire you to write this article," or to be on this podcast or whatever, whatever. I literally had to walk away from my laptop because I was like, "I am done with this. Never. No, no, no, no."

    Eman Ismail: Good for you. I think that is so interesting that it's that term specifically because when I started copywriting, that's what I was taught. And in turn, that's what I started teaching because I didn't have the knowledge or the confidence to stray from what I was being taught until much later on when I realised that that's not how you persuade people to do something, certainly not to buy something. And that's not okay. But it's interesting because that was the exact term. And as you said it, again, I felt that in my stomach, I was like, oh.

    Mai-kee Tsang: Not good.

    Eman Ismail: Yeah. I know. Okay. I wish I could just delete that part of history. But you know, have you watched Twin Flames, Mai-kee, on Netflix?

    Mai-kee Tsang: No, but I've heard of the concept. Please, please, inform me. [laughs]

    Eman Ismail: Okay. It's a concept. I don't know much about it, but Twin Flames is something to do with like the idea of you having a soulmate, but it's like soulmate times a hundred, but there's the concept. But the concept is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about a Netflix documentary-

    Mai-kee Tsang: Yep, I've heard of it.

    Eman Ismail: -about a married couple who basically started a life coaching programme. It is what it is. It's a life coaching programme about how to find your Twin Flame. And oh my gosh, it is one of the most disturbing things I've ever watched. And this is serious stuff because they are claiming that they can help you find your Twin Flame so people are joining and then they are trusting this married couple who I don't think had any qualifications for any of this.

    They are matchmaking them with people. They don't know who they're matchmaking them with, and then they're telling that they have divine inspiration that this is this person's Twin Flame, so this is the person you need to marry and have kids with. And one of them ended up being a very dangerous person. This young girl was forced into this relationship with a very actually dangerous man. And she was in a really unsafe relationship for a long time.

    But my point is that it was really interesting. It's a very interesting documentary just about human behaviour, why people do things. Because the problem with this is—It was a cult, essentially. I mean, it still exists, so it's a cult. And by definition, one of the things around cults is that the main instigators are generally the abusers, and then they somehow manage to force the abused to also become abusers and abuse the people below them. And so then everybody in this circle is both the abused and an abuser as well.

    It was a very difficult documentary to watch. But as you were talking, I thought this because I could hear the shame in your voice when you were talking about that memory of making people cry on sales calls, but I can empathise with you because you were being manipulated, you were being taught to manipulate, and you then were being taught to be the manipulator.

    And this is the thing, when it comes from a person that you trust, that you look up to, that you think knows more than you, when you idolise them, exactly as you said, when you put them on a pedestal, in your mind, they can do no wrong, they know everything, they know so much more than you. And there's also that weird power dynamic, too, where they can pretty much do anything and say anything. It's a very dangerous position for someone to be in over you.

    Mai-kee Tsang: 100%. I guess I never really said it out loud, because I am someone, again, who takes blame for things that aren't always mine to take blame for. I take my taking responsibility to the next level in a way, but I reconnected recently to one of my best friends and we had worked for the same company. She left first and she actually helped me leave, not because he didn't let me go, but it's kind of like she helps me create the courage to leave. 

    And we were talking about this and whether we're still in contact or not, and I was like, "No, we don't talk anymore, haven't done so for years." We were talking about our experiences and how our younger selves—she used the word "brainwashed." We were really brainwashed. And that was really hard for me to hear because I try to see the best in people despite the horrible things that they've done, whether they meant to or they just did. And it was really hard to hear because, again, I once held this person in very high regard. And there are definitely good lessons I've taken away about what not to do.

    Eman Ismail: We'll talk about those in a second. [laughs]

    Mai-kee Tsang: Yep. [laughs] And I feel like he pushed me to my edge so many times, in a way that back then I was not grateful for, and probably, in retrospect, I'm still not grateful for. But I can't deny that a part of me still has a form of gratitude for helping me see what I am truly capable of. And it was a weird thing when we went on a trip together, a work trip with everyone in the team, and he told me, I'm like Pikachu, the Pokémon.

    Eman Ismail: What?

    Mai-kee Tsang: And at the time, it's a compliment, actually.

    Eman Ismail: Okay.

    Mai-kee Tsang: With the way that he said it. Because I love Pokémon, I grew up watching it, I played all the games, all that good stuff. He was like, "Yeah, you're like Pikachu." And I was like, "Okay, why?" [laughs] I'd take that as a compliment, but why? And he was like, "Because people really underestimate how powerful you are."

    Eman Ismail: Wow.

    Mai-kee Tsang: You seem like, you're cute, like Pikachu, right? But it didn't come across in an eugh kind of way. It's like, oh, okay. He's like, "From appearance-wise, you wouldn't expect it, but you're really powerful."

    Eman Ismail: Wow.

    Mai-kee Tsang: And I was like, "You know what? I'm gonna take that." [laughs] I'll take that with me at least.

    Eman Ismail: Yeah. I'll leave everything else. I'll take that though. Yeah.

    Mai-kee Tsang: And I think he started realising I became more aware of my power, and that was a good point for us to part ways. And so we actually parted ways on very amicable terms. He actually rehired me because he saw how great I became at copywriting. [laughs] He was like, "Actually, can I rehire you on retainer?" But yeah, anyway.

    Eman Ismail: There was something else that you mentioned earlier in the interview around a coach telling you to do something around visibility that made you super uncomfortable. So it's not just this one case that you've experienced in the danger of idolising, of pedestalising the people who are teaching you, coaching you. Tell me about that as well.

    Mai-kee Tsang: Yeah. So after I left Community X Leader, I had hired a couple more mentors who really helped me set my way. I mean, actually, it was how we connected, so through Rob and Kira from The Copywriter Club. They were fantastic mentors, and I'm really grateful to them, even to this day, and it's great. And so it was my next mentor who, again, I feel like she had good intentions. It's just that sometimes good intentions really aren't enough.

    Eman Ismail: Yeah.

    Mai-kee Tsang: And I think that's when I really started to see the gap between myself and the people I was learning from. And basically, in this scenario, we were talking about different ways to amplify our visibility. And one way I was supposedly playing small was that I didn't put myself in front of more people even if they weren't fully aligned. It was kind of like a volume-based visibility style, which I'm not for. I'm very much on a values-aligned kind of way of being visible. It's what I teach, it's what I advocate for, it's what I do myself. But back then, I didn't know any better.

    So I reluctantly took her advice, and I got the consequence. I listened and I disregarded my gut reaction that was like, "No, don't do this." But my brain was like, "No, listen to her. She obviously knows what she's doing. She's so much further ahead than you. She's so much beyond you. You should listen to her. That's what you're hiring her for." This was during the era of constant 10k programmes, the high-ticket programmes that are still around, but there was a point—you know how there was an era of webinars and courses, an era of workshops, an era of high-ticket 10k programmes? I feel like they're not in their own eras anymore. I feel like it's kind of like, oh, they're still there, but we're just a lot more intentional about whether we buy it or not now.

    Eman Ismail: Mm-hmm.

    Mai-kee Tsang: But yes. So when I was re-traumatised, I really had to do a lot of work with my therapist.

    Eman Ismail: So just a reminder, and I'm sorry to have to go over this, but just so the story makes sense. You did what the coach told you to. That meant that you ended up in someone's Facebook DMs and they sent you an inappropriate message back of a sexual nature which was very triggering and traumatising for you.

    Mai-kee Tsang: Yes because my entire trauma survival story is from being in positions where I've been overpowered by men, and I'm not saying this as if all men are the problem, that's not the point. They just so happened to be men who had abused me throughout my life in various ways. And that includes psychological abuse.

    So even just from a message, that's enough for me because I think at that time, I was still quite raw from my most recent experience, because it happened throughout my 20s, and at this time when I was working with this coach, I'd say it was on the cusp of a couple months apart between my last incident. So for me, it was still quite raw and real.

    And so to be in a position where that was being questioned and where I felt like I was being confronted by it, I was like, "Nope, okay, I'm not listening to you again." I am not listening to someone else's advice without consideration of what I genuinely need as a human being to be physically safe in my body and psychologically safe in my business because I can't speak my truth this way. I can't help people this way when I'm at my absolute minimum, when I'm living in fear. I can't do that.

    And that's what really spurred me to not only supercharge my healing journey by being very proactive around it. So, again, I worked with therapists, I worked with crystals, I had a couple of healing modalities that I explored with and found my own combination that worked for me.

    And that's what sparked—when we talked at the very beginning around Sustainable Visibility®, that's what sparked those conversations because I'm wondering, why does no one seem to take into account safety when it comes to being visible? Why is it always about who can jump off the cliff first and how much we can put ourselves out there? Yes, that is important, but what about the things that help us stay visible? Because anyone could follow a strategy, but what about the people who actually stick around? That's something to consider.

    Eman Ismail: Yes. Yeah, you're so right, because anyone can get momentary visibility or momentary attention. But how do we get that longevity? Which is what we want as business owners.

    Stick around. Don't go anywhere. We'll get right back to this episode after this quick break.

    What if I told you there's a proven way to get invited to be a guest expert on podcasts without needing the right connections, luck, or even to pitch yourself? If you want to know exactly how to become easily invitable, you're in the right place because Mai-kee Tsang has taken out the guesswork and demystified it for you in her private podcast series, Inside the Invite™.

    Inside the Invite™ is where Mai-kee's interviewed 10 podcast hosts about their exact thought process when it comes to inviting guests onto their show. I'm actually one of the podcast hosts spilling the beans about what I look for when choosing who to invite onto Mistakes That Made Me. Other guests include Mistakes That Made Me guests Amy Posner and Kirsty Fanton.

    So if you're ready to go from passively hoping podcast hosts will start inviting you onto their show, if you're tired of cold pitching podcast hosts and you want them to start inviting you, grab Inside the Invite™, Mai-kee's private podcast series, and find out how you can proactively position yourself to be the go-to expert who's invited onto podcasts and beyond. Head over to maikeetsang.com/insidetheinvite or just click the link in my show notes. Mai-kee taught me a lot of what I know about getting onto podcasts. So if more podcast guesting is one of your 2024 goals, you don't want to miss this.

    Okay, so let me ask you the next question. How did this mistake of idolising and pedestalising the leaders that you've learned from, how did this mistake make you?

    Mai-kee Tsang: In so many ways. And the first thing that comes to the forefront right now, they've unknowingly helped me know what I'm here to stand for, and what I won't anymore. What I will no longer tolerate, what I would no longer ignore, and being extremely firm with my boundaries. Even though it's not a part of my business title, it's not a part of my core messaging, I am very much known for my boundaries.

    I've been told by peers, by community members, they respect the heck out of my boundaries. And they're even like, "Oh, Mai-kee, actually, can we leverage some of this language and make it our own, to make our own boundaries?" I've been contacted by people who are the head of coaching associations and like, "Can we borrow this language from your autoresponder?" And I'm like, "Why not? [laughs] Go for it."

    Eman Ismail: Love it.

    Mai-kee Tsang: So how it made me was that, again, it helped me realise I'm no longer going to bypass my values. I'm no longer going to bypass my instincts, which I've been taught so much from so many of my mentors—not all of them. Definitely not Rob and Kira, by the way. They're the good eggs that I found in my journey. But yeah, definitely I feel so much more grounded in my decisions.

    And because of that, I have been able to be the pioneering person behind the Sustainable Visibility® movement that celebrates a human-first approach to being seen, that finds that sweet spot between what works for you as a human and also what works for your business. And because I've been sustainably visible, and in my case, it's been through podcast guesting, it's by been doing Cuppa Catch Ups™, it's been a very strong community that I've built, and I'm so proud and honoured to be supported by such amazing people. And it's because of them and because of this journey I've been on, I've really stood my ground. And I stand out because I stand up for what I believe in. And I'm very vocal about who I stand with in the process.

    Eman Ismail: Oh, I love that. I've also, Mai-kee, heard you talk about, and we've spoken about something that you learned from this, which was the idea of not looking up to people, but looking to them.

    Mai-kee Tsang: Yes,

    Eman Ismail: Tell us more about this idea of not looking up to people, but instead looking to them.

    Mai-kee Tsang: Yes. I'm a recovering people pleaser. So when you talk about people-pleasing tendency, I'm like, "Oh, I could so relate because I've been that person." [laughs] And sometimes I still dip into that depending on how intimidated I feel by someone or something like that. But anyway. I digress. But yeah, I feel like a huge step that's really stopped me from putting people on a pedestal or idolising them is not looking at them from a perspective of a fan.

    And I don't think there's a problem with fandom. I think for me, it's not great. For other people, it can be fine if there's boundaries within, right? But there is such a thing as parasocial relationships where it feels like there is a relationship that's actually one-sided. And I think that's the problem that can come with the fandom approach to appreciating someone's work.

    So for me, I've very much been very conscious of using the language. I don't say I look up to someone because when you do, you're creating an actual contrast, like the distance between you, that if someone is up above you, that means you're below them, quite literally with this language.

    And so what I've done instead is what you've alluded to is I say I look to them because they are further ahead. Let's not pretend I am the end-all-be-all knowledge fountain of visibility. That is not true. There have been plenty of people who are more experienced than me, that are further ahead than me, they have more knowledge than me, et cetera, et cetera, but that's okay. That's okay.

    And now I look to them, and I'm like, "Oh, what have I learned? What can I learn from them?" And I very much look at them with respect. I respect the work they do. I respect how they carry out their work because that's a big thing for me. It's not just about whether something works, it's about why it works. So if I know sales are working because I'm making people cry, no, thank you. I don't want that. I've been forced to do that before. I do not want to do it anymore. And I haven't since I left that company.

    But my point being is that I look to people because of how much I respect that they've stayed in their lane and they're doing incredible work and they're doing it in a very consensual way when they're encouraging their community to critically think, not to shut down their thinking and put them in a state of heightened susceptibility to influence. No. You're like, no, no, no, let's actually give you time. Let's actually make you assess. Are you in a position to make this investment, whatever it is, right?

    I'm looking to people with respect. Not admiration either, because to me admiration's kind of in that same era of fandom. I'm like, nope, I want to be someone who really respects them for the work they do. And to me, that's been really helpful. And I have to acknowledge Becky Mollenkamp for this, who's the host of Feminist Founders, that podcast. And the language that she uses is the leaders who leave the door open for those behind them.

    Eman Ismail: Oh, wow. I love that.

    Mai-kee Tsang: I loved that so much when I read it. I was like, "Oh, yes, all of that," because, again, let's not deny there are people who are ahead of us, who are literally in front of us, but they're not above us. They're the people who look behind, they leave the breadcrumb trails, and they're leaving the door open because someone else is going to come through.

    Eman Ismail: Oh my gosh. I mean, it's what we were talking about before is that there are so many people who want to gatekeep success. That's what it is.

    Mai-kee Tsang: Yep.

    Eman Ismail: I have chills from what you just said. Wow. Can you say who you learned that from again? Becky—

    Mai-kee Tsang: Becky Mollenkamp.

    Eman Ismail: Mollenkamp. Okay. Here we come, Becky Mollenkamp. Thank you for sharing.

    Mai-kee Tsang: Oh, she's fire to go follow on Threads especially. The Threads algorithm really loves Becky on there. I wouldn't say for some reason, there is a very genuine reason, like she's fantastic. I've been on her podcast as well, so if anyone wants to listen to that episode, but yeah, I really, really love that she's very much about uniting the people and really leading from an intersectional feminist perspective. And yeah, I just loved that language when she shared it with me on a call the other week. And I was like, "This is the kind of person I really respect."

    And the kind of people she calls in are people who also believe in that mentality. Yes, we are the kind of people who are leading in some shape or form, and we're not gatekeeping. We want people to not follow us, but to kind of like, if they are on an aligned path that is already partially paved for them, they can deviate from it, make it their own if they want to, but if they don't want to and they just want to strengthen the path, then they can, because we've left the door open.

    Eman Ismail: And this is the thing. It sounds really silly, but it's so hard to say no to someone that you look up to, that you're learning from. We've spoken about this, this idea of wanting to get a gold star or be the A star student where we want our coaches, our teachers to respect us, to like us. And so we don't want to say no. So when they tell us to do something that feels uncomfortable, you're like, "Well, they know. They know more than I do and I can't say no because well then I'm not—" like otherwise, what am I paying them for? To say no to the things they tell me to do? And so you start to distrust yourself and your own beliefs, your own values, your opinions even.

    And so it took me a very long time to realise that I don't need to do everything coaches tell me to do. I can take on their advice and listen to it and I can decide that I'm not going to do that. And actually, because I can relate to this so much, I actually have periods in my business where I make sure that I'm receiving no coaching at all because I feel like—I'll go into maybe a coaching, I don't know, container or something, or a community for a little while and have a coach for a little while. And then whenever I'm finished, I always need a break. I need to breathe and I need to be alone and not have a coach because I need to make sure that I can still make decisions without someone behind me.

    Mai-kee Tsang: Oh, yes.

    Eman Ismail: I work with so many people who are like—No, sorry, I used to work with so many people, not now, but who used to be like, "Okay, that sounds like a good plan, Eman, as my email strategist, but I just need to go ask my business coach what they think about that." Wait, what?

    Mai-kee Tsang: It's like they need permission from someone else other than themselves, right?

    Eman Ismail: Yeah. For what reason? I can understand you sometimes being like, "Oh, you know what? I just probably just want to check in with someone and just see what someone else—" but every time you need to make a decision in your business, you need to go ask someone for permission?

    Mai-kee Tsang: I've had a conversation on my own podcast about this. There's a real problem for the business coaches, or coaches in general, that creates a codependent relationship with their clients which start exhibiting these behaviours where it feels like they can't do anything without them. And that's on purpose. It's so that they keep hiring them.

    Eman Ismail: Oh my gosh, that is so interesting. I've never once considered that, and that makes so much sense.

    Mai-kee Tsang: See? It makes sense. It works for the business, but at what cost? I'm always asking myself, what's the cost here if I do this or if I don't? And there are some things that are too expensive. My mental health is incredibly expensive. It's like premium level expensive. Nothing is worth compromising that, you know? So I think of that all the time. I'm like, "No, my mental health is too expensive. No, it's not worth the cost." [laughs] 

    Eman Ismail: Wow. And of course, all of this experience, this whole experience led you to become a trauma-conscious leadership coach.

    Mai-kee Tsang: Yes, amongst many other things. I've been a podcast guesting strategist since 2019. And this is where I help people get booked on aligned podcasts on their own terms. I can do that via DIY or I can do a done with you/for you kind of situation. But ultimately, what I do, overarchingly, is really help people become sustainably visible. And if podcast guesting's not their thing, that's fine. But it's very much about really—to be honest, it's really about knowing yourself because I can give you every strategy under the sun— and I can't do that, which is why I host my own event to help people chime in with their area of expertise of visibility. That's what the event is for.

    But for me, I am basically the person who helps you find out what's really going to work for you as a human and as a business owner, and really being able to make decisions with such intention that's going to help you last and sustain yourself out there when you are being seen, and doing it in a way where your consent is weaved all the way through. So yeah, that's what it's really about. It's really about, again, showing up in a way that means something to the people you're doing it for. And it's your work in the world.

    Eman Ismail: Wow. I mean, this has been really fascinating. You've taught me things I didn't know about—certain practices that are not okay. Oh my gosh, how much do we not—I wonder how many times we are being manipulated and we don't even realise, we have no clue, we have no idea. That's so disturbing.

    Mai-kee Tsang: It is. Incredibly, it's disturbing.

    Eman Ismail: It is. And one of the things that we also spoke about, Mai-kee, was the reason boundaries are so important to you, the reason understanding what works for you, what doesn't, when you're in a safe space, when you're not in a safe space is because for the same reason that many marginalised, under-recognised, under-represented people and people from those communities, for all the same reasons they also require all those things. It's so important because there are many spaces in which we're not safe.

    And I was thinking about, the fact that I follow your stories, your posts. I think it was on Facebook that I saw you say this a while ago, and it's happened quite a few times. Sometimes you receive really disgusting, racist, awful messages from anonymous people submitting things through your website contact form. It's so disgusting and it's shocking, but it just goes to show why it's so important for you and for other people as well to be able to control the spaces that you're in and make sure that you're in a controlled, safe environment because I mean, we have to experience things in the world that other people don't have to.

    Mai-kee Tsang: Yeah. And oh, I accidentally opened up my messages 'cause I use Showit, that's where my website is based on. And there's a particular tab that displays all of the messages I've received from my contact form. And I accidentally opened it thinking like, "Oh, was this something that I missed?" Oh, no. It literally said, "Ching chong choppity chopsticks," or something like that, amongst other things. Ironically, it's actually not the worst I've received.

    So it's been awful to receive those things, but the thing that I always do, and this actually might be helpful for anyone who's listening, is like, oh, how do I decompress from something like that, that I did not invite into my inbox? And I always ask myself, "Did this person have anything constructive to say? Is this someone I respect? And Is there anything that they have said that is a truth that I'm unwilling to look at right now?" I always think of those two things, and if they don't tick all the boxes, if they had nothing nice to say, if it's not someone I respect, if it's not a truth that I'm unwilling to look at, it's just not true at all, or it's just not something I agree with, I discard.

    Because, again, I'm a highly sensitive person. The way I describe myself, how I move through the world, I honestly feel like an open nerve to the world. And that means my sensory experiences can be very overwhelming very quickly. Something like the tone of light, sometimes that's too much. You know how we spoke about you speaking at ATOMICON? That was the first conference I've been to since COVID. And I don't know if it's just because like, oh, I'm not used to it anymore, but it's when I learned I truly have sensory overwhelm.

    Eman Ismail: Wow.

    Mai-kee Tsang: And what it took for me and someone who I met there, we both put in our AirPods and we turned on the soundproofing function so it dulls out the sounds around us so we can actually focus on the conversation to each other 'cause we couldn't focus and it was really hard. Very overwhelming. I'm an open nerve, and because of that, I can't actually change that. I can't change the fact that I'm like this. You know soundproofing headphones?

    Eman Ismail: Mm-hmm.

    Mai-kee Tsang: I learned a few months ago, because I was trying to drown out the noise of my snoring sister, brother-in-law, and my baby nephew because we had to share a room, they were like a snoring symphony for goodness sake, and my brother-in-law was like, "Oh, let me lend you my headphones," so I did, and I started feeling very nauseous very quickly. And I was like, "What's going on?"

    And so I googled it. People who are prone to motion sickness may actually feel this sensation because there's a frequency in the headphones that helps you drown out the noise. And the thing is because my body's not moving but it sounds as if I am, there's a disconnect between what my brain and body feel. And that's what creates that feeling. And I was like, "Great. I can't even use soundproofing headphones unless I'm actually moving."

    Eman Ismail: Wow.

    Mai-kee Tsang: And so because of all of this, there are so many things I have to factor in that no one else needs to. Everyone has their own conditions that they need to honour, their own needs, their own values. Again, this is what loops back to my business. It's why I have a human-first business, which goes two ways. I think about the people behind it, and I think about the person who's like me in this case, and I think about how I can run a business that is truly human first where we do factor in these things, and no one else can tell us otherwise that it's not enough because they will never know what it's truly like to be in our shoes, to be with our tone of skin, with our body, with our family dynamics, our heritage. They will never know that to the extent that we do.

    So when people tell me that I'm playing too small, I'm like, "You really don't know what that is." To me, I'm an East Asian, I am of Asian descent. In my culture, being visible is not a thing. It's something that actually is very frowned upon because people should not know what your business is. And by business, I don't mean actual business in terms of like my Sustainable Visibility® work, but people shouldn't know what you're doing. That's very much what it's about.

    So I'm already having an uphill battle, literally going against my culture. That's already a huge thing. And for people who come from a different culture that celebrate your individuality, they celebrate your creativity, et cetera, et cetera, I'm like, great, that's fantastic for you, but don't turn around and tell me that all I need to do is the same thing as you because I'm already running uphill and it's exhausting, so I'm going at my pace. And so all of my work is encompassed around really being aware of your needs, your values, your boundaries, so you can really show up in a sustainable way.

    Eman Ismail: Wow. Thank you so much for sharing that. I think it really just highlights everything we've been talking about and why it's so important to do what works for you because we are so different and we each have such individual needs that are created by so many different factors and variables that there's no way that one coach or teacher or mentor or whoever can come in and tell you what's right for you. They can advise you, they can make suggestions, they can offer different options, but they cannot tell you what is right and best for you. Only you know that.

    Mai-kee Tsang: 100%.

    Eman Ismail: I do want to say that I actually have someone in my family that is a highly sensitive person, so I'm very aware of what it means to be a highly sensitive person. Actually, I think I have a couple of people. It's funny because I came across this term and I actually went to both of them, and was like, separately, "I think you're a highly sensitive person. You should probably look into this." And they were like, "Oh my gosh, I understand myself now. I get me now," which is so interesting.

    And someone who talks about this a lot in the context of being a business owner is actually Caroline Zook. So Jason and Caroline Zook have been on this podcast before. They spoke about falling prey to new ideas.

    Mai-kee Tsang: Teachery, right?

    Eman Ismail: Yes.

    Mai-kee Tsang: Yes, I remember. Oh, I love that interview. [laughs] 

    Eman Ismail: I loved it too. It's one of my favourites. Jason and Caroline Zook are a married business team, business couple. They have two businesses together, Teachery, a course platform, and also Wandering Aimfully, the coaching programme. And Caroline Zook identifies as a highly sensitive person, and that has a lot of implications on how she does business, even how she can run her programmes, how she engages and interacts and communicates, all those things, how she's able to do tasks and be productive or all that kind of thing. And she talks about this in the context of being a business owner.

    And so I just want to share that for anyone who is interested in knowing more about that or having more conversations about that, Caroline and Jason's talk about being a highly sensitive business owner. So do just Google them, check it out. I know they have a YouTube video, and I'm sure they have something on their blog as well. And they talk about it in their podcast, which is called Growing Steady. So do check them out.

    Mai-kee Tsang: I love that.

    Eman Ismail: Yeah, me too. They recently rebranded from What Is It All For to Growing Steady and it just feels so right for them.

    Mai-kee Tsang: Yeah. Feels good.

    Eman Ismail: Yes. Well, Mai-kee, I have two more questions before we go, before I let you go. Thank you so much because it's been such a great conversation. What do you want others to learn from your experience?

    Mai-kee Tsang: If I could say anything, it's to really learn to listen to yourself. Listen to the things that don't feel right. Listen to the things that create a knee-jerk reaction in you that make you feel heavy in the chest or feel like you've been stabbed in the gut or whatever that is. Really listen to that because that's your body. You know when people say, "Oh it's body language." Your body's actually speaking to you through these sensations, you know.

    I remember when I used to do emotional eating coaching because that was my first iteration of business ever in life. And I imagined my partner, who's an animator by the way, or at least had a first degree in animation from uni, I asked my partner, I was like, "Hey, would you be open to possibly making—" this animation never got made because I never [laughs] really went through with it. But I literally thought, what if we can literally pan down to someone's stomach in an animation, and it literally grows lips and starts talking? It's like, "Hey, you shouldn't actually put this in my body," or whatever. [laughs]

    Eman Ismail: Wow.

    Mai-kee Tsang: Imagine if your body had a voice, if it could actually speak words to you. It can't, right? But listen to what it's saying, feel what it's saying through the sensations. And I promise you that when you start really being fluent in your own body language, in your own internal language that goes between your two ears, your brain, what you say to yourself, things will really shift for you because that's when you really start to learn how to discern when to say yes to something, when to say no, when to consider, and really making a decision that is actually well-informed for yourself, for your business. I wish I could articulate that so much better, but— [laughs]

    Eman Ismail: No, that was beautiful. It really was. I saw the different body parts talking. [laughs] 

    Mai-kee Tsang: Growing lips. [laughs] 

    Eman Ismail: Yeah, growing lips and talking to me. But it's so true. You feel it though. You really do. And we ignore it. For me, it definitely presents itself in my stomach. I feel my stomach flip and do that kind of thing, but also my chest. It's a chest constriction for me when I get that. I'm like, "Oh. Yeah, this doesn't t feel good. Whatever it is, I've got to rethink this."

    Mai-kee Tsang: May I actually present an exercise that I used to share with my clients?

    Eman Ismail: Oh, yes, please. Free coaching, I'm all for it. [laughs]

    Mai-kee Tsang: [laughs] So because I've had people tell me before like, "Oh, that sounds great because you've been used to doing it, but what about me? I don't know what to look for. I don't know what sensations my body gives me." I'm like, "Okay, that's fine. Let's start outside of the body. Instead of listening to the cues in the chest and stomach, et cetera, let's do it this way. So whenever you have to make a decision, put Decision A in your left hand. Literally hold out your hands."

    For anyone who's listening to this right now, if you're driving, do not close your eyes. If you are driving, please park somewhere where it's safe to do so. [laughs] But if you're in a position where you're like, "Oh, I don't know what decision is actually right for me." Close your eyes. Hold out your right and left hands and quite literally weigh the decision. 

    In your left hand, which is the yes to this opportunity, how does this yes feel in your hand? What colour does it have? What texture does it have? Is it airy? Is it heavy? Whatever it is. In your right hand, if it's a no to the opportunity, how does that look like? What colour is it? What texture is it? Is it light and airy, or is it heavy as a rock? Is there even a scent to it?

    Weigh out the yes and no and ask yourself, "Which of the two feel better?" And when you really do this with intention, your hands will actually start to shift, and the one that's right for you will actually rise, your palm will actually rise up.

    Eman Ismail: Wow.

    Mai-kee Tsang: [laughs] I see the pause in your face and you're like, "Uh-oh."

    Eman Ismail: First of all, that was an amazing exercise. Even just to imagine the decisions having a life of their own and what that really feels like. Secondly, you need to look into like being a hypnotist or something. Something like hypnotist, like, I don't know, meditation. Yeah, you were made for it. [laughs] 

    Mai-kee Tsang: Is it the voice?

    Eman Ismail: It's the voice.

    Mai-kee Tsang: Is it my voice?

    Eman Ismail: It's the voice. So relaxing. I was like, "Yeah, I'm there. I've got these two decisions in my hands. One in each." [laughs] Not everyone can do that.

    Mai-kee, it's been so great having you on the show. Thank you so much for being here. This was long anticipated, and I'm so glad we finally did it. Tell us where can people find you if they want to stay connected?

    Mai-kee Tsang: Oh, thank you, thank you. I've absolutely loved this conversation today. Thank you so much for having me. And for those of you who are not tired of my voice yet or tired of me as a person yet, here are a couple of places that you can find me.

    I would highly recommend that you go to my website, maikeetsang.com/insideinsights because all of the things that Eman and I have spoken about, I talk about a lot to my email list. There are a lot of things that I just don't share on social media and it's because, again, when I look back, in retrospect, I've spoken about being visible in private spaces, I share a lot more intimate details in private spaces that are on my turf, in this case, my email list. So that's just an example there about being visible to the right people.

    Yep. So you're in for that. Check out my email list, Inside Insights. And you can also find me if you did want to be on Instagram or LinkedIn. I'm actually very like a baby in LinkedIn, but I'm a lot more on Instagram. I'm in my DMs, so definitely reach out if you've really loved this episode because I'm gonna be so proud to share this episode, Eman. Thank you so much for having me.

    Eman Ismail: Thank you so much for saying that. Thank you so much for saying that because that's the goal, is to create such a great interview that the guests are super proud and super excited to share it. So I appreciate that. Thank you, Mai-kee. Thank you for being here, and I'll chat to you soon.

    I wish you could have seen Mai-kee's face when she shared that story of being pressured to make people cry on sales calls. Actually, if you follow me on Instagram @emancopyco, you will see her face in the video clip for this podcast promo. Mai-kee's face was filled with shame. Even though I have a podcast about mistakes and failure, it never ceases to amaze me how it's often our biggest source of shame, hurt, upset, regret that leads to our greatest success.

    Without that experience, and without the experience of finding herself in that guy's Facebook DMs, Mai-kee would not be the business owner she is today. She would not have the business she has today. She wouldn't have the strong values she has. She wouldn't be showing other business owners how they can create their own rules for their own life and business. We often think if given the chance, we'd choose to erase our greatest mistakes. But if we did that, how much of ourselves would we have to erase in the process?

    Ever wondered what goes into creating this podcast? What my production process looks like? How I came up with the concept for this show? How I choose which guests to invite and how exactly I research them? Well, I'm sharing everything inside my bonus episode, Behind the Scenes: Making the Podcast. For this special episode, the show's podcast producer, Zuri Berry, takes the reins and interviews me so you can find out all the juicy details and behind-the-scenes stories. 

    I reveal, for the first time ever, how I landed the HubSpot partnership and what that agreement involves, as well as the key to sending a podcast pitch that'll get my attention, the interview methods that helped me nail my podcast interviews, and the resources and strategies I've used to help make this show a success.

    If you want instant access to this bonus episode, click the link in the show notes or head over to emancopyco.com/bts, that's behind the scenes, emancopyco.com/bts.Put in your email address, and that's it. It's yours.

Studio Elias https://www.studioelias.com
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