Episode #12: Seeking Internet Fame
Dielle Charon has cracked the code. This business coach earned more than a million dollars in 2022 and $370K in the first 2 months of 2023. She says one of the reasons for this success is her focus on delivering quality programmes and buttoning up her business processes.
But it took a lot of mindset work to give up chasing the glamour of internet fame and social media celebrity.
In this episode, Dielle shares how her biggest mistake early on in her coaching business was comparing herself to other business coaches on social media and spending too much time trying to become popular online. Now, she’s focused on being comfortable with her own experiences and skills to find the success she’s looking for.
Listen to the Episode
Show notes
Links from this episode:
Dielle’s website: https://diellecharon.com
Dielle’s podcast: Black, Banked, and Booked Out
Dielle’s free training: https://diellecharon.com/free-training
If you loved this episode, take a screenshot, post it on Instagram and tell everyone you know that this is the podcast to listen to. Don’t forget to tag me! @emancopyco.
And if you’re interested in working with me, visit emancopyco.com/contact.
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Eman Ismail: Sometimes it feels like being a business owner just isn't enough anymore, like being great at what you do, just isn't enough anymore. With the rise of social media, it feels like you not only need to be doing your thing as a copywriter or a coach, or a designer or creator, or whatever your craft is. It feels like you need to be on Instagram and YouTube and LinkedIn and Facebook and Twitter and Pinterest and every other social media platform in the world.
It feels like in order to have a successful and profitable online business, you need to be everywhere. You need to be internet famous. And with that comes the pressure to be popular, to be liked, to not ruffle feathers. To not get canceled. It feels like you need to be an online personality now, a personal brand, an influencer, even a celebrity entrepreneur.
Some of us business owners have made it into the land of celebrity entrepreneurship. We have the Amy Porterfield and the Jasmine Stars and the Jenna Kutcher's of the world. What about you? Do you as a business owner want to be internet famous? I don't. When I was little, oof, fame was something I was desperate for.
I don't know. Maybe most little girls wanna be a famous singer. No, as an adult though. I have a sneaky suspicion that wanting to be famous has a lot more to do with the deep-seated need to be accepted and loved and seen and validated, maybe even obsessed over. Today, I understand I don't need to be internet famous to have a successful online business.
Not everyone needs to know who I am. I just need the right people to know who I am. I'm lucky that early on in business I was listening to people like Paul Jarvis, Caroline and Jason Zuck, Emily Thompson and Kathleen Shannon, who were talking about alternative options to internet fame.
But what about business owners who don't have those influences? It's deceptively easy to fall down a rabbit hole, searching for validation and popularity. And once you're down there, it's so hard to pull yourself out.
Dielle Charon: I didn't feel popular. I didn't feel known. I didn't feel, I think like looking back, I didn't really feel accepted in the industry.
I felt like an outsider. I felt quirky. I'm like, I wasn't taking like these amazing photos on the beach of me living my laptop lifestyle. Like I wasn't doing any of that. And I thought like, well then who's gonna buy from me if I'm not popular? Who's gonna buy from me if I am not promoting this big flashy life?
Like here I am waking up at 6:00 AM to go take a bus, right? Like this is the opposite of flashy and popular and all these things.
Eman Ismail: On today's show, I'm speaking to Dielle Charon, a seven figure sales coach who helps women of color coaches multiply their sales and experience freedom. We're talking about how early on in her career Dielle was seeking internet fame. We'll also talk about the fact that the moment she stopped seeking it and became confident and comfortable with her place in the online business world, internet fame found her.
Dielle Charon: What I have is enough and I am enough. And I don't need to look like somebody else in order to get what they have. What if I can get what they have in air quotes, faster, smoother, easier my way, and by being myself, like it takes so much energy pretending, right? Like it just takes so much energy pretending to look a certain way, keeping up with appearances, keeping up with how things are supposed to look. It can be exhausting. And so something that I've just spent a lot of time thinking about is just like, how am I enough? And if I'm enough, I can probably move a lot quicker and a lot faster.
My marketing assistant just told me that we got picked up in Forbes.
Eman Ismail: Welcome to Mistakes That Made Me, the podcast that asks extraordinary business owners to share their biggest business mistake so you know what not to do on your road to success. My name's Eman Ismail, and I'm an email strategist and copywriter for online business owners and e-commerce brands. I'm a podcast lover, a pizza binger, a proud mama of two, and I have this radical idea that if maybe us business owners were a little less guarded and a lot more open about the mistakes we've made, we could help each other grow a business that brings us more joy and less regret.
Dielle, thank you so much for being here. I'm so excited to have you.
you
Dielle Charon: I'm so excited to be here.
Eman Ismail: Thank you. Well,Take us back to social worker Dielle. Dielle, who's earning $2,500 a month living paycheck to paycheck, commuting three hours every day to get to her job, can't afford parking. So she's taking the bus to work every morning.
What was going on with that Dielle that led her to start a coaching business on the side?
Dielle Charon: Yes. So I started my business with all those amazing details that you had and, It was mainly I knew I wanted to pay off my student loans and I was doing the math and I was like, okay, $2,500 is not gonna help me pay off my student loans. Like it's not gonna get me far at all. And so I was looking for ways to bring in money and so I actually started in network marketing and then another friend in a different network marketing company set me a podcast about coaching.
And then I learned that women. We're making hundreds of thousands of dollars off of Instagram selling, coaching. Like not selling like another product or somebody else's thing, but just selling transformation. And I fell in love. I fell in love with the coaching industry from there.
Eman Ismail: So most people who are in nine to fives would, well, a lot of people would stop themselves from building a business thinking, you know, I don't have time. Or, how much money can I really make while I have, you know, have to dedicate myself to this other job. How did you kind of move past all of those objections and just do it because you earn a lot of money while you were working in your nine to five, so how did you get to that point where you just did it and you made a lot of money doing it?
Dielle Charon: A few different things. One of the things is I learned how to sell and I learned how to sell with the people who were right in front of me, right? And so I learned how to sell. I learned how to get good at sales calls. I learned how to launch. I learned how to put together offers that people wanted, and so when you learn how to sell, it's kind of like selling supersedes time because if you know how to sell the one hour that you spend in your business can produce money, that's what was my experience. I'm like, oh, it doesn't mean that I need a lot of time to make money. If you need a lot of time to make money, you're, you're doing it wrong.
like, dare I say that a little bit, like you're missing something because it's kind of like learning how to drive. It's like when you pop in your car, you know how to move the steering wheel, you know how to move the, the gas and the brake and the, the, what is that thing where you push into drive versus reverse, whatever that
Eman Ismail: God. Don't ask me the, the gas stick. Is that
Dielle Charon: Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, something like that. Moving it, you know, shifting into gear. Totally. Yes. Like, you know how those things work, so you're not spending two hours learning how to get from here to the grocery store, right? Like, but you just pop in and you know where to go. That's what happens when you know how to sell.
Like it doesn't have to take a whole lot of time to make money. When you know what you're doing, you know what the right buttons to press and the right mindset you need to be in.
Eman Ismail: Okay. That makes so much sense. And a, as you made that like supermarket analogy, it reminded me of the fact that no matter where I am, I will always just wait to go to the supermarket that is closest to me because I know where everything is. And I can go in and I can go out and it's like boom, boom, boom.
You know where is. That makes so much sense to me. So when it comes to your coaching business, you are now a seven figure sales coach who helps women of color coaches specifically. I'm really interested to know what did you see was missing for women of color coaches that made you wanna focus on support in this community?
Dielle Charon: You know, I recently was talking to my team and we were just reminiscing on like Dielle, why did you even choose women of color? Like how did that even get on the table? And it made me realize, like I borderline forgot, like I a little bit forgot why I chose women of color. And I think it was mainly just to believe that people who looked like me did this.
I think like that was the crux of it. And also there were some lived experiences that were different. There were some things that I went through that my white coaches didn't go through. There are some conversations that I had to have with my family that other people didn't have to have with theirs. And I think that's, you could say that with anything and everything, right? Like everybody's family is different no matter what your background is. But yes, I just realized, you know, I wanted to see more women of color making money and I wanted to learn from them and I wanted to create community with them. And I want us to talk about so many different experiences that are not talked about in the coaching industry.
So I'm trying to think about a specific example, but I remember saving up for a whole year, my salary, a whole year before I quit my nine to five job. And it was because entrepreneurship was so foreign to me. It's not like you know, my family was full of entrepreneurs. They weren't, like nobody in my family was an entrepreneur. Versus in other people's communities, entrepreneurship is pretty standard. Right? And it may not be oiling entrepreneurship, but maybe there's realtors or maybe there's mom and pop shops, or maybe there's, other small businesses that people are used to knowing about and having conversations with. But particularly in, bipo communities, we're not entrepreneurs, right? We go to school and then we work jobs. And so I knew that I had to approach my husband and I knew that I had to be so certain and so clear and have a safety plan when it comes to quitting my job.
Versus I got so much coaching from amazing white coaches that would say, why don't you just quit now? Quit now. And I was like, no, it's different for me and my family. This experience is different. It's like, yes, I technically could, but I know with what, how entrepreneurship is portrayed in the Black community how entrepreneurship is deemed, it's deemed as risky, it's deemed as all these things. I knew that I had to do things differently. And so that's just an example of like how there are certain conversations and there's certain, philosophies that are unique to the women of color experience, but not excluding, but are just unique.
Eman Ismail: Mm-hmm. . Yeah, no, I totally get that. I, I as well have always had white coaches and have had, you know, amazing coaching from them. But actually I just signed up to get some coaching from two married Indian coaches and I am so excited to see, you know, the different experience that that brings and the different conversations that we're able to have.
And so I've only just joined, so I don't know what it's gonna be like yet, but I am super excited and it was exciting for me as well to choose someone who, I mean, I'm from the UK so for me, all my coaches have been American and I needed that initially because Brits are very reserved Brits. We don't talk about money, we don't talk about
Dielle Charon: So many of my, so many of my clients from the UK say that. So many. Wow.
Eman Ismail: It's a whole thing. We don't talk about money. We don't ask each other how much we make. You do not tell people how much you make. And so I actually like, I was like, no, I, I'm looking at these Americans over the pond. They're making a lot of money and I need to know how they're doing it.
So let me go find me an American coach. So I got myself an America coach and I, I'm very much in like the American copywriting sphere because I love the vibe. I love the confidence. I love the money talk. I love all of it. And so, but it's still alien to me. It's still something I struggle with a little bit.
So for me it's, it's interesting to have non-American coaches. Right? And that's something else I wanted to ask you. So this is a little bit of a selfish question because something that I am struggling with at the moment, right. I am coaching some copywriters. At the moment I have a mastermind and, um,
Dielle Charon: Yay. Good for you.
Eman Ismail: you. Brilliant, uh, group of, of copywriters. And one thing that quite a few of them have said to me is, you know, one of the reasons I chose you is because you are from the UK and I've not seen a lot of copywriters from the UK making a good amount of money. So in terms of where I am at in my business, so I'm at six figures and this year I'm working on multi six figures, we hope. And I struggle to share what's going on money-wise. I do share it because I see that it's beneficial for the people who are watching me. It's actually helpful to them and useful to them. And I try to do it in a way that's useful, right? So it's not just, I'm making this, it's, hey, this is my experience of making this, but I struggle and I don't know how much to share. And it's that, that British cultural thing, again, telling me not to talk about money, sometimes telling me, you know, people will think you're bragging. It's really, it's not nice. Just, you know, just stop talking about it. I love the way you approach money, and it's just so, there is no shame around it. There is no, you know, there's nothing for you. There's just nothing wrong. We talk about money. Let's talk about money. So I wanna know what advice you have for me in terms of overcoming this. Almost like money shame.
Dielle Charon: This came up as you were talking. I don't know if it lands, so tell me if it doesn't. But my brain thought about, I don't know about you, but in my family and kind of like how you're describing right now. Money is talked about, right? But it's often talked about negatively.
Eman Ismail: Yes.
Dielle Charon: So it's like, okay, we think about money. One branch or 50% of the conversations are negative, right? 50% of the conversations are negative. Why can't we just put on the table the 50% of the conversations that are positive? If money is already being talked about, if it's already the topic of conversation, if it's already on the table, right, why can't we talk about the good parts of it? Right?
And I truly believe, like when it comes to money, it waxes and it wanes, right? Like I talked about in a post that went viral recently how, like, during my million dollar year last year in 2022, I had $200,000 in the bank. And then sometimes I would have 5K in the bank, right? Like it waxes and it wanes. But I think like honestly, so many people wanna loop to the money abundance side of things where what if we actually just need to get neutral?
Like no matter if you have $200,000 in the bank or if you have $5,000 in the bank, or if you have $50 in the bank, what if it all can feel the same? That's been like the wildest experience for me, even though I've had all those different numbers in the bank at one given time, right? Like I still feel the same. I don't feel different.
And so no matter how much money-- and I just wanna be clear too, like I understand the privilege of that statement has a ton of privilege attached to that-- but something, and then I'll loop back to your question, but something that has really neutralized money for me a lot has been actually been diagnosed with a chronic illness.
And for the first time in my life, money can't fix this. Money cannot fix my health. My body's gonna do what it's gonna do. Right? And that's been a huge, huge learning lesson for me where I'm like, money can't fix this. And I was taught for so long that money fixes everything. Money fixes every single problem.
But I think so much about like money can't necessarily, it cannot always fix a divorce. It cannot always fix a death in the family. It cannot always fix every negative situation in life, I'm gonna have money and still experience negative emotion or negative experiences or pain, emotional pain, physical pain, money can't take away everything.
So we got very dark. Right. But like to go back to what you were saying, I just like to think about if money is being talked about negatively, just to equal it out. Just in the name of neutrality, where can I talk about it in a positive way for you? And also you were talking a lot about culture and like the UK. This is the last thing I'll say, I promise.
I think too, it's also like just not changing. The culture or finding exactly what you did, fighting a culture that does talk about money the way that you want. Did any of that land let
Eman Ismail: It did. It really did. And I love the part where you said money waxes and wanes, because that's something I've realized over the past couple of years. So I've been in periods of my life where I had no money and now I'm in a better period of my life. Thank God. And one of the things that I've realized over the past two years, and this has been like the new thing that I just, that I say to myself a lot is money comes and money goes.
And so there was a time when I was, a while ago, I'd had my second baby and it, it was a really tough, you know, birth and he'd been in hospital and like I needed my family, I wanted my family, so I wanted to go abroad, go visit my family, being with them in the sun for a little bit. And, but I was saving up for my, well, I was supposed to be saving for my car because I was tired of walking around with two kids. And I just thought, you know what? I need this, like, I need to go do this for myself and my sanity for my mental health. I need to go have a holiday, see my family. Money comes and goes, I will spend this money and it will come back. It's fine. And that's what I remembered as you were saying that to me, money waxes and weights is so true.
But do you think we feel like that and we know that because we now know how to make money and maybe we have confidence in the skill of like our skill of making money? Is that what it is?
Dielle Charon: I think totally. I think we're able to say that more calmly, and I think we believe it more now that we make money. Right. But if you were to tell me about this conversation three years ago, I'd be like, they're all liars. Right? No money. Money does, money does solve all my problems. Right? Like, I totally would've believed that.
So, no, and that's why I said like, it is a privilege to be able to say these things, right? Like, and it is a, a level of privilege, but it's also the truth. And I think one of the biggest disappointments I've had is when I made a million dollars in 12 months, I'm like, and I heard people say this, and I didn't believe them, but I'm like, oh, I, I genuinely feel the same.
Of course, I'm proud of myself. Of course, I believe in my ability to make money. Of course, I, I think like I'm gonna do big things in the world. But like, I still have fears. I still have anxiety. I still have worry. I still have shame. I still have negative experiences.
Eman Ismail: Mm, wow. Wow. And I wanna talk about your million dollar year for a second. So you went from $40K to a million in 2022. What changed between $40K and a million? Like what was, what would you say is the biggest thing that allowed you to, to make that jump?
Dielle Charon: Sure. So I do wanna just provide a little bit of context. So I did $40K in 2019 while working a nine to five job. In 2020, I did, $300K with a nine to five job. 2021, I was full-time. I did $500K. And then I doubled that in 2022, I did a million.
And so I would say one of the biggest things is mindset work. Being introduced to mindset was amazing for me. Because I tried all the strategy and it wasn't working. And so being like, oh, there's this whole mindset piece to it. The mindset worked, helped the strategy work better, right? It's not like I only did mindset work, but the, the mindset work helped the strategy implement better. I took action faster. I took more risk, right? I said more ballsy things on the internet, right? Like I was able to overcome objections. Having mindset work helped me take bigger action on the strategy that I already know. And so that's how I like to, to describe it, and that's how I like to talk. but yeah.
Eman Ismail: Are there any, was there anyone in particular that helped you with mindset work or any any particular resources that you'd recommend?
Dielle Charon: Absolutely. So learning about the model, from the Life Coach School and the model is, something, called, the self-coaching Model and it's stands for CTFAR, Circumstance. Thoughts, Feelings, Actions, Results. And the premise is you have a neutral circumstance. So like the amount of money in your bank account is neutral. How many clients you have is neutral, nobody liking your post on Instagram neutral. Right? And then you have a separate thought about it. So you have the circumstance and then your mind has a sentence about that circumstance, right? And then that thought creates a feeling in your body. And when you have that feeling in your body, you do or do not do certain things. You take certain actions, and then those actions create your results. So circumstances create thoughts. Thoughts creates feelings. Feelings create actions. Actions create results. And the premise of it is, you are in control of your thoughts and your thoughts are optional. If you can change your thoughts, you can change your results.
And I really took that seriously and I would put crazy things in the circumstance line, like I would be like, okay, negative bank of balance. What do I wanna think about this? Okay, I haven't signed a client this month. What do I wanna think about this? In choosing thoughts that were helpful and empowering, not just believing every little thing my brain said.
So that is from the Life Coach School. They have several YouTube videos and she has amazing podcast episodes on it. And she also has programs that you can join to learn more about the model. And there's a certification. I actually got certified with a life coach school. And so there's even coaches that teach the model like myself. And so learning about that type of mindset work really made the difference because I was doing all the actions, but I had to look at my thoughts while I was doing the actions.
Eman Ismail: That's, that's amazing. And I can already see how you can just change your entire life with that. Yeah. And for anyone who doesn't know the Life School, the Life Coaching School is with Brooke Castillo, right? Yes. And you were the first black millionaire inside the Life Coach School. Tell me about that.
Dielle Charon: It's insane. It's wild. I, I don't think I've said this anywhere else, but I didn't think I was gonna make a million dollars last year. It wasn't necessarily my goal. But it's just what worked out. I remember going to our big convention called Mastermind in April of last year, and my goal was $750K at the time, but I got so much coaching on no deal. What's the difference between $750K and a million? Right? And then I also got a lot of coaching on, I remember they had the awards for the seven figure earners, and I didn't see a black person up there. I didn't see a black person. And so I was like, and in that moment I was like, man, I know I gotta be the first one and that means I gotta change my goal and I gotta do more stuff and I gotta coach myself and work on my mindset.
It was kind of like, it was like an eye roll. Like, oh, okay, I guess I'll do it. Like that's how it
Eman Ismail: be me. It's gotta be
Dielle Charon: It's gotta be me, right? But it didn't have to be me. Right. Like it did. I'm like, I could've let somebody else do it, but I was like, no, it's, that's gonna be me. And so last year was, a rollercoaster and we crossed the finish line in November. Um, So we even did it early and it was, it was wild. I'm so proud of myself. I'm so proud of my team. I'm so proud of my clients. My clients are absolutely amazing.
Eman Ismail: Oh, that, that is amazing. You mentioned your team. What does your team look like? Who did you have on your team?
Dielle Charon: Yeah, so I have only contractors. I don't have any employees. I'm the only employee in my business. So right now I have an operations manager. I also have a,project manager that I just recently hired. I have a video producer, a creative director that does all my social media, my website stuff, and I have coaches who coach for me when I'm out or when I'm traveling. I have coaches who run the group for me.
Eman Ismail: Amazing. You mentioned you have a creative director for all your socials and your website and both are amazing , so yeah, I really loved especially a website. Yeah. Brilliant.
Dielle Charon: No, she's amazing. Her name is, Jasmine. Her agency is called High Flower Powerhouse. You should follow her on Instagram. She's huge.
Eman Ismail: I will. Thank you. I will. Okay. Dielle, that was amazing. Thank you. I feel like I had my own little mini coaching session there. Might as well make the most of it.
Dielle Charon: Yeah, sure.
Eman Ismail: So let's talk about what I invited you here for. Are you ready?
Dielle Charon: Mm-hmm.
Eman Ismail: Okay, Dielle. What is the mistake that made you?
Dielle Charon: The mistake that made me was believing that I needed to be popular and that I needed to have a major, big audience in order to make sales.
Eman Ismail: I love this. I can't wait to dive into this. Okay, so take me back to the beginning of like that thought process. Like where did that even come from and what were you thinking and feeling when you were, you know, feeling, thinking that.
Dielle Charon: Sure. So I actually think this has to go back to our conversation about women of color. I just were seeing so many people who didn't look like me blow up. Just like make all this money. And people would tag them in their Instagram stories and people would tag them in their podcasts and they would get featured here and they would get featured there and they, all these things would happen and I would just see them be so successful.
Then I would look at me and I'd. Barely had a thousand followers on Instagram. Nobody was talking about my podcast. Nobody was talking about anything I was doing. I mean, of course, my, my clients, but I didn't feel popular. I didn't feel known. I didn't feel, I think like looking back, I didn't really feel accepted in the industry.
I felt like an outsider. I felt quirky. I'm like, I, I wasn't taking like these amazing photos on the beach of me living my laptop lifestyle. Like I wasn't doing any of that. and I thought like, well then who's gonna buy from me if I'm not popular? Who's gonna buy from me if I am not promoting this big flashy life?
Like here I am waking up at 6:00 AM to go take a bus, right? Like this is the opposite of flashy and popular and all these things. But I just realized that there were more people who were like me than who were out there taking photos on the beach, right? There are more people who could relate to my story than could relate to some water goddess on the beach, right?
And no shade if you take photos on the beach, right? I have lots of clients that take photos on the beach. They're beautiful. But it's more the energy and it's more the, the comparison that I felt. Right? And so, yeah. And also just like I never went viral. I never, like, you know, did a whole bunch of video and always grew my video.
I didn't, I didn't pick up a whole bunch of steam, I didn't get inundated with speaking requests. Like that's now just starting to happen. But like, it didn't, it didn't happen for four years while I was doing all this. I, I didn't need it. So, something that I, I just really realized was like, oh wait, I didn't need to be popular. I just needed to know how to sell. I didn't need to to feel like Beyonce. I just needed to know how to sell.
Eman Ismail: I love that because I think, I mean, I've had the conversation often around whether you need to be. Internet famous or whether need to aim to be internet. Internet famous to make a lot of money to have a successful business. And while, by the way, I, I hear your name everywhere, , so I, I know that you are. really well known, right? But I look at your Instagram and this is, this is great for me, right? You have, right now we have 5,214 followers, which is fantastic because it just goes to show that you don't need hundreds of thousands, you don't need half a million followers. You don't need this humongous number of Instagram followers to make a million dollars in your business.
Dielle Charon: Totally. You don't No, I, I've, I, I have none. None of that. None of that. And even like you saying, like you hear my name everywhere, I'm like, you do Like, it's, it's still like, hasn't resonated with me. And I think I've just been realizing, especially now, like my marketing assistant just told me that we got picked up in Forbes.
Like it just happened. So I'm so excited. , but you, thank you so much. But you wanna know what, like my thought is, I'm like, this doesn't mean anything. And like, not in like a self-deprecating way, but like, I never needed to be in Forbes. I never needed to be in Forbes. I never needed it. You know, like all of this is just bonus, it's just extras.
But I never needed to be in Forbes. And so it's just, it's just been super exciting.
Eman Ismail: I love that.So let's talk about you making money without being internet famous or realizing that you don't need to be internet famous to make money, right? So, well, what did you, what did you do? How did you gain the audience that you did have and how did you make money from them?
Dielle Charon: So. Was just a little bit that I did. So I do have a podcast that helps me. I also
Eman Ismail: Brilliant podcast.
Dielle Charon: Thank you.
Eman Ismail: That episode about, the Invisible Client blew my mind.
Dielle Charon: So many people love that episode. Yeah, no, I, it's, it's always the episodes where I'm like, I'm gonna slap this up, see what happens. Right. And then it, it takes off. Right. But yeah, I do have a podcast. I do have referrals. I think the number one thing that honestly helps me. grow and grow is in air quotes, is I, I, I'm a good coach. I'm a really good coach, and my coaching is unique, right? Like no one can coach like me. No one has been able to crack the code on sales calls the way that I do. Like no one has been able to do that. And so I think that is talk worthy.
There's this book, I actually never read it. But I just love the concept of it. Maybe I'll buy it. I have like 200 Amazon business books in my office closet right now. Right. It's, it's addicting. I realize like, I think I just buy the book because it makes me feel like I'm learning something, even if I don't read it. Like
Eman Ismail: Just have it on the shelf and the knowledge will somehow just like seep into your brain and it's fine. You're smart. because you have the book in your office. It's fine.
Dielle Charon: Literally some way, somehow has to be right. but it's called Talk Triggers and it talks about the power of word of mouth marketing and he basically says like, your product needs to be so good that it's talk worthy. Right?
And he talks about like the different types of ways people do word of mouth marketing. But the book is called Talk Triggers. And it just got me thinking like, if you have a really good product, people will talk about you and people will, will talk in general. Like I think so much about my relationship with Claire Pells, and it was because I coached her. Like it wasn't because like of anything else, other than she really liked the coaching that I gave her. I was a good coach. I have good products, right? I have a good skillset that other people want.
And so I think whatever it is you do, even if you sell. underwater basket weaves, right? Like, do you have the best underwater basket weaves ever? Or I even think about, this is a little TMI, but I'm sure you'll, I'm sure it'll still relate. So I even think about oregano oil like a supplement that I take. And it regulated my cycle, my period, and I was just like, I have to tell this to all of my friends. Like I don't need birth control to have a consistent period. I can just take a natural supplement. And so it's all of these little things like if you have an amazing product, people will naturally talk about you.
Eman Ismail: I love that and it's, I'm so glad we're having this conversation because I have, I guess as we came out of 2022, I've obviously been like thinking about the year, you know, where my clients came from, what marketing works for me, what didn't, all that kind of thing. And I've found that no matter what I do in terms of marketing, no matter like how much I put my effort into like a certain marketing, you know, area, word of mouth always comes out on top.
And at one I was like, what can I do to make my other marketing things, you know, work even better than word of mouth? And hearing you say that has made me realize that, that, I mean, why would I, why would I want to do that? Like, it's great. That word of mouth is the way that I'm getting my best clients.
I guess my concern was, reliance on word of mouth, because it can beat, sometimes it can it, you know, it can go up and down, that kind of thing. so what, what do you have to say about that? Like the concern.
Dielle Charon: I always say like, and this is something that I actually learned. And so I didn't do any lead generation, like active strategies to grow my audience all of last year. I didn't do a ton. So I'm doing them now and I think just one of the business things I'm gonna do is I'm always gonna do lead generation. And I teach a three part lead generation framework where it focuses on short-term lead generation, which is social media long-term, which is SEO based platforms like YouTube, podcast blogging. And then the third is collaboration and referrals. So I'm always just in my business operations, it's literally a line item in our team agenda every single week. We need to be doing something with lead generation so that I just don't have to worry. Or like you said, 100% rely on that. That's just something that we're gonna consistently be doing.
When you talk about these different areas of, of lead generation that aren't necessarily word of mouth, can you pinpoint one that has been particularly successful for you?
Dielle Charon: I think it really just all depends. I could tell, yeah, I would tell about me, but like I remember a client where I was like, well, why don't you think about doing collaborations? And so she did a collaboration. I hate collaborations. I don't wanna do them. Right. And like that's the great thing is like you just have so many options.
You don't have to do all of them. So I just wanted to say that, but my podcast does well, even though my podcast doesn't get a ton of downloads, it converts. It converts just fine. And so, I get a trickle in from the podcast. I also do great on Instagram and we're actually gonna double down on video this year. So I'm super, super excited about that. Because I just post the most random reels and they take off. So I'm like, I could do more of this.
And then we're actually gonna get on YouTube this year. So we're really, this year is a big lead generation year for us.
Eman Ismail: Mm-hmm. . I love that. Yeah. You and you're great on video. I, one of the reasons I started doing audio and video more was because a family member actually said to me like, your, your personality comes across better, like comes across on video and audio. Like you really need to make the most of that in your marketing.
And I was like, oh, well
Dielle Charon: Even though you're a whole copywriter.
Eman Ismail: Isn't that interesting?
Dielle Charon: Fascinating.
Eman Ismail: It is. And it took a family member saying to me like, why are you not utilizing video and audio? Like that's where you need to be in your market. And I was like, oh, okay. Thank you. I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I mean, they're not a business owner, but they were just telling me what they saw in me and I was like, you know what, I'm gonna take that.
Thank you for that advice.
Dielle Charon: So good.
Eman Ismail: Yeah. So, okay. You are, you're in your business. You were wanting to be, or you were thinking you needed to be popular? Actually, that's a good question. Did you wanna be popular? Did you just think you needed to be,
Dielle Charon: Hmm. I think I want it to. Because I felt like I needed to. Does that
Eman Ismail: yeah, yeah, yeah,
Dielle Charon: I felt like it was so blurred. I was like, no, I want it. I want it. I want it. But it's, it's so funny, actually, I was just talking to Claire about this. You know, she asked me like, what are your biggest fears now that you've made a million?
And one of them is being canceled and like being so big that so many people have thoughts about me and like the thoughts swallowing me up, right? And taking me out. So I've had to do a lot of work on do I wanna grow? Like do I wanna continue to scale? Like do I wanna do this? Do I wanna do that? And so that's been my biggest work.
Eman Ismail: Yeah, I can only imagine. I mean, I, I would say I have a medium size, like it's, I mean, it's not . I'm not Amy Porterfield, you know, but I am now getting to the point where, I have to deal with like with some weird situations and like not very nice messages sometimes. And I just had one a couple of days ago and literally I was hold, I was minding my own business. I was holding my baby and. It's my fault for even checking my email in the evenings. I should just like completely be out of it. But I texted my email and had the the nastiest email from someone who'd bought something from me and wasn't happy about the number of emails that I was sending. Right? Really nasty email. And I just thought, imagine if I had an even bigger audience, like the scale of this that you would have to deal with the criticism, the just nastiness, have you had to deal with that and if so, how have you kind of worked through it?
Dielle Charon: So it's interesting like. I'm, I'm putting something together, like you said, like it was somebody who bought something from you. I'm realizing that it's really your clients that are the most nastiest. That could be the most nastiest. It's people who've bought from you that have the most opinions and also feel super entitled to say those opinions to you.
I think it's actually like, , the people who are most closest to you are the ones that could cause you the, the most amount of issues. And so I think that's been the case and I haven't had anything major at all, but I was literally in my Slack channel with my client. The client wasn't happy that I wasn't doing something that she thought I should do when I was like, this actually goes against my policy.
Dielle Charon: And she wasn't happy about that. So literally just today I was dealing with that. And so I think it's something that I just think about is several things. I think I'm learning that container setting is super, super important, and onboarding is super, super important. Like this person wanted me to watch her sales calls back, and I don't watch sales calls back.
I have them do an evaluation process, and she didn't like the evaluation process. So in that example, I was just thinking to myself, oh, I need to be very abundantly clear as soon as they enroll in the offer. And this client I've worked with for a year, so she knows this, like she knows I don't do this, but I'm like, oh, I just need to be abundantly clear and talk about, you know, why I do what I do, why I don't do what I do, right? And not in this people pleasing, please, like my reasons way. But I do think, which leads me to my second thing, context is helpful. And I don't know. I haven't checked what the client said, but I explained why I don't, I said, if I do that, then I can't.
if I spend all my time watching sales calls, I can't create curriculum for you. I can't create courses for you. I can't, you know, I can't deliver my teachings to you if that's all I spend my time doing. And so I think just offering context will be helpful. But also remembering that not everybody will understand either , right?
Like we can provide all the context on why we do something. And at the end of the. like this client, she's maybe like, well, I don't care. I want you to still do X, Y, and Z. And so I think container setting, onboarding and providing context can be helpful, but also just realizing that at the end of the day, we can't, we can't control others.
And something that I just also think it sounds, it sounds, passive or it sounds dismissive, but I'm like, if this client wants to leave, because I don't do something that she wants me to do. Right? There is another client out there. There's another client that has my mastermind, my programs on their, on their vision board right now.
Eman Ismail: I love that there's so much freedom in that for you.
Dielle Charon: Right.
Eman Ismail: I love it.
Okay, so how did this mistake make you, how did feeling like you needed to be popular, you needed to be known to make money? How did that mistake make you?
Dielle Charon: I think it just gave me permission to be like, what I have is enough and I am enough. and I don't need to look like somebody else in order to get what they have. What if I can get what they have in air quotes, faster, smoother, easier my way, and by being myself, like it takes so much energy pretending.
right? Like it just takes so much energy pretending to look a certain way, keeping up with appearances, keeping up with how things are supposed to look. It can be exhausting. And so something that I've just spent a lot of time thinking about is just like, how am I enough? And if I'm enough, I can probably move a lot quicker and a lot faster.
Like if I just show up with what I have, I can move faster than if I pretend to do something that I don't wanna do or don't wanna.
Eman Ismail: Was there anything in particular that made you come to that realization? Cause it feels like a big realization.
Dielle Charon: Sure. So I remember this was when I had a really long bout of comparison and really it was like jealousy really, if I could name it and be honest. And I remember being like, I was in a coaching program and this coach said to do, she was talking to somebody else about a completely different thing, but she was like, I want you to write down for 30 days straight this one particular belief or answer this one question. I can't remember what it is. But I said, I'm gonna do that about believing that I'm an expert all by myself. So for 30 days straight, I asked myself, how am I an expert with what I have right now? Nothing more, nothing less. How am I an expert. And I had to make my brain answer that question every single day for 30 days. And then my brain got stronger and stronger and stronger, and I realized I have everything I need to quit my job. I have everything I need to make six figures. I have everything I need.
Eman Ismail: Did that help you quit your job at
Dielle Charon: Yeah, no, it totally did. Yeah, it totally did. That was, that was the question that changed everything. Yes.
Eman Ismail: Oh wow. Oh, I'm interested to know, if you don't mind sharing, who were you comparing yourself to when you're going through this bout of comparisonitis?
Dielle Charon: There's this one particular coach who was my age and actually from the same North Carolina, random town that I'm in. And we had, I think she had a few more followers than I did, and she was launching her programs and it just looked effortless. It just looks so effortless and over, and I was over here struggling, struggling so much.
But it turns out like a few years after that, like, and I don't even know what she's doing anymore. Like I, I forgot all about her. I see. I think it's still follower, but she doesn't pop up in my stuff anymore. I don't even know who she is anymore. But I remember telling somebody their name and, and they were like, oh, I was their obm and they were terrible as a client. They were so insecure. They were so nitpicky over their launches. They were so insecure about their strategy. It was brutal working for them. And I was like, you have got to be kidding me. But like, that's often how it is, right? That's often how it is.
Eman Ismail: You just have no idea what's going on behind closed doors.
Dielle Charon: You have no
Eman Ismail: No idea. And what, I guess what people show us as well on social media is what they want us to see. Like we don't see the other parts.
Dielle Charon: Right, exactly.
Eman Ismail: I, I feel like this is related to what we're talking about. You realizing your worth, you realizing what an expert you actually are, and realizing that that's what you are able to move forward with.
I've heard you talk about this idea of trying to charge your worth versus proving your worth. Can you tell me a bit more about that?
Yeah, with pricing, and this is one of the concepts I learned from Stacey Boehman, my business mentor too. She has an amazing podcast called, I'm gonna butcher it. Business value versus self value or business value versus personal value or something like that. your business worth versus self worth, something like that.
Dielle Charon: But it's basically like, you are always worthy, you're always inherently worthy. Like you cannot put a price tag on you, but you can't put a price tag on your business, right? It's not like I'm going to charge someone $30,000, and to help them hit six figures, and I've never done that before. Right.
It's not like I'm gonna do something like that. So it, it's this idea of you are priceless, but your business does have a price. Your offers do have prices, and there are certain prices that make sense for your experience level, your skill level coaching, the results you've been able to produce in the past, your demand for how quickly you sell things. So there's a lot of other factors that go into your prices other than are you. And do you feel like it? Right?
And therefore your benefit, like I'm not raising the prices of my offers, I'm just getting better and better at selling them. I have one offer of five Figure Freedom that's at $5K, and then my Mastermind's six figure liberation is at $15K. So you know, I have those two offers and I'm not changing the prices of them. And that's okay because like when someone pays me $5K, they double their investment. That makes sense. When someone pays me $15K, they make multiple six figures. That makes sense. I don't need to jack up the prices at all.
Dielle Charon: And I always say like, if you ever wanna jack up your prices, just sell more of it. Right? You wanna make more. Sell more of it. Like you don't have to, you don't have to stick with your current income. You don't have to change your prices either. You could just get better at selling.
Eman Ismail: Hmm. As you were talking, I was thinking it's really funny how you've now stopped seeking popularity and that's when Forbes comes knocking at your door.
Dielle Charon: Oh, exactly. Exactly. Now, Mike, now they're here. Now they show up
Eman Ismail: Now they're here. Where were you before?
Dielle Charon: Where were you before? But honestly it's so interesting cause honestly, I think a few different things. So I just got featured on my coach's podcast and several people who've been featured on their, on my coach's' podcast, they blow up is what my brain says. Like they, they get big.
And so I was like, okay, well if I'm on the podcast, I'm gonna blow up. I got a few hundred more followers, but that's it. I didn't like double my audience. Right. And it was so interesting because I was like, yeah, I kind of expected this. Right. And this happened to them too. Like they didn't blow up either. Right.
And so it just was really, it was just really important for me to detach from thinking that those things mattered and to detach from me thinking that that was a secret sauce. And I remember all the time, there was this really big podcast and there were four different people on this podcast, right? One of those people took that opportunity that they were on the podcast and they ran with it, like skyrocketed it, right? That was like a launching path for them. The second person actually did nothing with that opportunity. They did nothing with it, and their business actually went down. Like they, they stopped selling all together.
And so it's like, it's not the opportunities, it's the person who gets the opportunities and what type of person you are and what you do with that opportunity. So I think it's just super, super important. Like I will never forget Sabrina Phillips, who, I think she was one of like the first women in online business to be in Forbes, period. She knew the article was dropping and she said, like, I knew the article alone wasn't gonna change my business. I had to make the article change my business. So she has this whole launch party and a Facebook group and all these things, right, to share and push the article out. And that's what put her on the map.
It was her pushing the article and making it a be a big deal that got it to be visible. And so I always just think about that, like it has nothing to do with the opportunity itself. It's like what do you do with the opportunity?
Eman Ismail: Mm. That's, that's amazing. And it makes me think about. This whole thing of when people, you know, like to tell you you're so lucky. Like you're so lucky that you got that thing, that you got the chance to do that, that that thing fell in your lap and it helped you do whatever you did next. You know, it's never, it's never look.
Actually, you know, who was it? Guy Raz on his podcast? I don't know if you listen to How I Built This. Do you?
Dielle Charon: Oh no, but I need to. So many people talk about that.
Eman Ismail: Oh my gosh, it's one of my favorite podcasts. And it actually inspired this podcast. It was love his like storytelling narrative kind of thing that he does. And so that's what I do with this podcast, interview. Like I create stories at the beginning and end, right? And in his podcast, he asks every guest, do you think your success was because of hard work or luck? And I wanna ask you that on the basis of what we were just talking.
Dielle Charon: So much hard work, so much.
Eman Ismail: Mm-hmm.
Dielle Charon: So much failure, so much disappointment. So many sad parts too. Like, you know, I think so much about one of my very first clients, and she almost had six figures with me, and then she had some life circumstances happen and she felt like she couldn't run her business anymore, and I felt so sad for her. And I miss her, right. And so there's still a lot of like grief in this industry too. There's still a lot of, lot of grief in this industry.
So much pain too. So many sacrifices, so many people that fully don't understand. And so a lot of hard work, but also a ton of celebration. Like we have a goal of helping 100 women of color quit they're nine to five jobs. We have another goal of a hundred women of color who are making half a million, and then a hundred women of color who are making a million. And that inspires me. That super, super inspires me and we're well on our way for all three of those, between my two programs. And so there's also just so much, so much to celebrate and so many good things that are coming.
Eman Ismail: I love that. Thank you for sharing.
Okay, last question. What do you want others to learn from your experience?
Dielle Charon: That you can accomplish your goals with what you have. You don't need anything more.
Eman Ismail: Thank you so much Dielle, this has been absolutely amazing. I've loved talking to you. Tell everyone where they can find you if they wanna stay connected with you.
Dielle Charon: Yes, you can go to my website, diellecharon.com, and I will spell it for you. D I E L L E C H A R O n.com. And you can check out my podcast, Black, Banked, and Booked Out on all the podcast places. And you can also get my free training. diellecharon.com/free-training can get you our latest free training.
Eman Ismail: Amazing. Thank you so much for being here. I've absolutely loved chatting to you.
Dielle Charon: Same here.
Eman Ismail: As a Black woman, it's so important for me to see other Black women doing big things. So this particular interview was very personal for me. I loved speaking to Dielle.
If you feel like giving up hope sometimes because the algorithm is messing you around and no one's seeing your posts and you're finding it hard to get in front of new audiences and grow your following, whether that's on social or for your podcast or newsletter, Dielle is a great example to look to for inspiration. Again, this is someone who made over a million dollars in revenue in 2022 who made $370,000 in the first two months of 2023, and at the time of recording this, she has exactly 5,424 followers on Instagram, which makes me think the number of followers you have means absolutely nothing.
What matters more than popularity is the impact you're able to have on people. It blows my mind to think about the lead to client conversion rate Dielle must have. But when I think about the conversation I just had with her, I can totally see why anyone who speaks to her, who listens to her, who even just comes across her, would want to learn from her.
Maybe this whole conversation about seeking fame isn't really about fame at all. Maybe it is about impact and about wanting to change the world in a big way. Maybe it's about wanting to leave a legacy so you won't ever be forgotten, which is interesting to me because most of us will be forgotten one day, and I don't say that to be depressing or mean or negative. That thought actually brings me a lot of comfort. One day I will be forgotten. And that realization makes me humble and it also gives me the courage and the freedom to do everything I want to do today and to be everything I want to be today. Because that means the world won't remember me forever and I can just be me along with all the mistakes that make me.
This is it. This is the end of season two. In case you were wondering, this podcast was scripted by me and produced by Zuri Berry from ZMC Podcasts. Thank you, Zuri. I love the show we've created and you, yes, you.
Thank you so much for listening. I love getting your tags and comments and DMs on social media. It gives me motivation to keep this podcast going.
Do me a favor, share this podcast with your audience. If you have a newsletter, a big or small following on social media, or even a podcast of your own, give this podcast a shout out and link directly to it. I'd love for more business owners to listen in.
As for what's next, I've got a couple of bonus episodes in the work, so look out for those. And I'm gonna link to my newsletter in the show notes because I have a weekly email that goes out. And honestly, my emails. Am I allowed to say this? Look, my emails are great, so you wanna get these emails. See you in your inbox? If not, I'll be back towards the end of the year with season three. See you then.
