Episode #1: The $12,000 Mistake
How do you lose $12,000 in one day and still come out winning?
My guest is Vivian Kaye – the CEO of KinkyCurlyYaki – a business and empowerment expert, a keynote speaker, and a TV and podcast personality who lost $12,000 on a photo shoot that went wrong. This mistake forced Vivian to think more deeply about her instincts and how those instincts have helped her business thrive.
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Instagram: @itsviviankaye
Twitter: @itsviviankaye
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[00:00:00] Eman Ismail: The year is 1978. Ashley is a young mother living in Ghana’s capital Accra, where she works as a business owner, selling wares in Makola Market. This open-air market is overflowing with people, sounds, and scents. And Ashley is surrounded by women who were just like her determined to feed their family by selling anything from fresh fruit and vegetables, pots and pans, colorful dresses, shoes, and locally handcrafted beads.
Ashley’s husband is already living and working in Canada. So right now she’s parenting her four girls alone. Later that year, her husband will send for her so they can all be reunited in Toronto.
Tied to Ashley’s back as she works at the market, is her second oldest daughter. Her name is Vivian. Little did Ashley know that her move to Canada, her struggle to rebuild her life, learn a new language, raise her girls in a country that wasn’t her own, would be totally worth it.
And that little girl on her back would have grow up, follow in her footsteps by entering the world of commerce, and become the Vivian Kaye, a woman who’s built three successful businesses with one of them making over $6 million in revenue.
[00:01:27] Vivian Kaye: So I always say that I’m, I, I, my mother’s wildest dreams. I’m living out loud for my mother doing all the things she couldn’t do. I’m doing that.
[00:01:36] Eman Ismail: On today’s show, I’m speaking to Vivian Kaye, founder and CEO of KinkyCurlyYaki about how one mistake cost her over $12,000. But also taught her that nothing good can ever come from ignoring your own instincts.
[00:01:50] Vivian Kaye: I just was not feeling it, but I was like, it’s okay. I was worried about the sunk cost. So I just said, okay, it’s okay. We can push through this. We can push through this. And then, I just said, okay, no. No, Nope, Nope, Nope, Nope, Nope, Nope, Nope.
[00:02:03] Eman Ismail: Welcome to Mistakes That Made Me, the podcast that asks extraordinary business owners to share their biggest business mistake so you know what not to do on your road to success.
My name’s Eman Ismail, and I’m an email strategist and copywriter for online business owners and e-commerce brands. I’m a podcast lover, a pizza binger, a proud mama of two, and I have this radical idea that if maybe us business owners were a little less guarded and a lot more open about the mistakes we’ve made, we could help each other grow a business that brings us a more joy and less regret.
So you’re most known for your multimillion dollar natural hair extensions business, KinkyCurlyYaki. And of course, Vivian Kaye Consulting is super popular as well because people want to learn from you and want to learn how you’re doing what you’re doing. But KinkyCurlyYaki was not your first business.
So bef yeah. So before we dive into KinkyCurlyYaki, tell me a little bit about how you got into business.
[00:03:07] Vivian Kaye: Ah, well, you know, all of my businesses, I started because I had a problem I needed to solve. So the first business that I started was a wedding decor business. And I only started it because I had a sister who got married and she had hired a decorator that did a crap tastic job. And I thought to myself, you know, we’re not the title.
Family or the type of people who spend, you know, thousands of dollars on wedding decor. So I’m sure there’s gotta be a market for women or brides who want beautiful wedding decor, but don’t want to spend a lot of money on it. So I was doing this thing where I called it simple yet fabulous. So it was a business that I started.
And then while I was running that business, which I ran successfully for about nine years, and that was also a six-figure business. That’s how I started KinkyCurlyYaki.
[00:04:00] Eman Ismail: Wow. And so why did you move from Vivian’s Decor to KinkyCurlyYaki?
Well, while I was running Vivian’s Decor, I came across another problem, which was I needed hair that looked quote unquote presentable. And if you’re not a Black woman, if you are a Black woman, you know exactly what that means, but if you’re not I’ll just explain. So a lot of Black women go through this thing where, we’re told that our, our natural hair, whether it be curly or kinky or coily is not professional. So a lot of us are used to put chemicals in our hair in order for it to look straight and to mimic, you know, that European texture. But by, by about 2010, but w you know, with the rise of YouTube, we started getting sick of that. So we started to try and care for the way our hair grows naturally.
With that said a lot of us wear protective styles because we live in climates that aren’t really conducive to keeping our hair curly. Right. So Europe and North America. That sort of thing. And so I needed a protective style that looked like my hair. That’s what I wanted. But when I went looking for it, I couldn’t find it. And if I did, if it was buried between the, you know, the bushes, the Brazilian and the Malaysian, the more silkier textures of hair. and I was tired of that African in the front and Indian in the back. And so then I went looking for the answer to my own problem.
[00:05:23] Vivian Kaye: So I was in Facebook groups, I was in haircare forums trying to solve my own problem. And when I saw that there were other women having that problem, I sort of, you know, took the idea and filed it in the back of my head because I was already running a successful business. But then, you know, I didn’t want to start another business cause I was like, yeah, I can’t. The first one was a fluke. So let me just, let me just focus on that. But then I went to a networking event and another Black woman pulled me aside and said, what is your regimen for getting your hair to look like that? Who is your hairdresser? And I was like, girl, this is a weave. And she said, I would buy that. So, not only did I have proof of traction from this woman who was, who told me to my face that she would buy it and I bought it, and I knew there were dozens of other women on the internet who would also buy it. In the down season of my wedding business I just said, hey, let me just give it a try and see what happens.
So in December of 2012, I launched KinkyCurlyYaki and it immediately took off because this was at the time where, there weren’t any companies just selling kinky textured hair. I am the originator. I invented the niche. I am the O G. And so now, even when people refer to, you know, kinky textured hair, they’re like, yeah, I want that KinkyCurlyYaki. So I didn’t mean to start a second business. It was, again, a problem I wanted to solve for myself. And, you know, I had proof of concept just by going out in public with it. And doing research. And I saw that there was a problem that needed to be solved.
[00:06:54] Eman Ismail: So this business grows and immediately takes off and you have another business running. So what happens next? How do you deal with that growth? And now you have two businesses and six or seven months into KinkyCurlyYaki, you get pregnant, right?
[00:07:11] Vivian Kaye: So I got pregnant, had a baby. So I was running the two businesses consecutively because why not right at the time? You know as a single woman who had nothing else to do. So why not, you know, just get into the hustle. But once I had my son, and I, and I saw that the business was really the e-commerce business was really taking off because it was something that I could do at 2:30 in the morning while I was breastfeeding.
And so by 2015 I was like, OK, I’m I’m, I’m done running two businesses. This other business that I’m, I’m running seems to be doing well. You know, cause the first year I’d hit just under a half a million in sales. And that’s just with, you know, organic reach and word of mouth. So I thought, wow, I’m only doing this half-assed so what if I actually put my full ass into it and see what happens? And so here we are.
[00:08:02] Eman Ismail: Wow. Wow. And so I hear you talking a lot about how your mother inspired you in entrepreneurial-ism. She was the first person you saw doing business. Tell me a bit about your mother and, and the role that she played in who you are today.
[00:08:18] Vivian Kaye: Yeah, she plays a huge role in who I am today. So, my background. I’m originally from Ghana. So my mom and I, my dad was already in Canada and my dad sen t for us. So it was my mom and I. So of course, while my dad was gone, my mom had to support us. So I was that child that she carried on her back while she was selling goods through the markets of Mokala in Ghana.
And so that was my first exposure to being an entrepreneur.
And I would like to add that, you know, in quote unquote first world countries, being an entrepreneur is a luxury. Whereas in, you know, places like Ghana, you know, the Caribbean, Africa, period, for us being an entrepreneur is, is survival. Right. Because the government, uh, you know, the systems aren’t really set up to support people and to have, you know, plenty, plenty jobs, that sort of thing. So when we got here, my mom, you know, did all that she could in order to support my dad and to support her children.
Now, when you hear about being an entrepreneur, it’s like, oh, you know, it’s a luxury, it’s a hustle. Oh my gosh, I get to do it. If I don’t succeed, then that’s okay because I can get a job. I didn’t really have that sort of information because all I saw were white guys being, entrepreneurs. Right. and even then it was like, you know, if you were an entrepreneur, you either a kajillionaire, or you were just that person that couldn’t get a job.
[00:09:39] Vivian Kaye: And so for me and my mom, like for watching my mom and knowing that hustle, that’s the version of entrepreneurism that I know, which is you need to do what you need to do in order to survive.
And so then here I was a single mom, with this business that was taking off, and all I did during that time was focus on my business and my baby. And having that sort of drive is something that my mom did. She had four girls, you know, she came from a village in and Togo and, you know, all she knew was to hustle. All she knew was to do is to work hard in order to feed her children and to house her children. And so then that’s, that’s the sort of drive that I had. So I didn’t let the fact that I didn’t have a college education stop me from even trying, because I mean, why not try? Right? Because what’s the worst that could possibly happen.
So now that I’ve accomplished all these things, you know, you always hear people saying that, oh, I’m my ancestor’s wildest dreams. No, I’m my mother’s wildest dreams. She came from a village with no education and here she brought her, you know, she, she left everything she knew to come to this new cold country to give what she could to her children. So the least I could do is if I’m going to try something, I’m at least going to give it 110%. Just so at least I can say I tried.
[00:10:57] Vivian Kaye: So I always say that I’m, I, I, my mother’s wildest dreams. I’m living out loud for my mother doing all the things she couldn’t do. I’m doing that. And then I hope to do my son does the same thing. I always tell him right now, Dolly, you got to finish school, finish school from up. Okay. Finish the things that I couldn’t finish. Okay. And then you go and be bigger and better. Cause that’s, that’s the dreams we all have for our children. To do better than we did.
Now, we’re not supposed to put our hopes and aspirations on them, but we do want them to do better than we did. Because once you know better, you should do better.
[00:11:30] Eman Ismail: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I feel that from, from what you were saying about your mom and to your boy as well.
Okay. So KinkyCurlyYaki grew so quickly. Surely there’s a lot of practical and also mindset stuff that you have to learn to deal with very, very quickly to kind of keep up with that growth. How do you manage growth that happens that quickly?
[00:11:54] Vivian Kaye: Honestly, it was like a snowball. So, you know, you know, a snowball at the top of the hill. So it was like, oh yeah, let me just create this little snowball, you know, the, you know, you have the good foundations of building a good snowball and you’re like, oh, I’d like it to get bigger.
So then you just sort of put it down on you, push it down the hill and then you’re like, it gets, as it goes down the hill, it gets bigger and bigger and bigger. And you’re like, oh my gosh. And you’re running after that snow ball. Well, that’s really what happened with me. So I just spent a lot of time running after the success. Right. So I was so busy in the success. I remember I hadn’t even told anyone what sort of success I was having. I was just doing it, like I said, I was minding my business and my baby. And so how you actually manage that, that sort of success. I like to say take big small steps.
So obviously I didn’t get there overnight, but it’s something it’s the small steps that I didn’t think mattered that I did every single day that helped me to get to that point of saying I’m a success. It’s so small things you don’t want to do every single day. It’s those things that, you know, you wish you had hired someone for, but you don’t have the money for, but you gotta do it. You know, all that stuff. That’s what makes it, that’s, what helps you to manage the success, and to know when to delegate and to know when to outsource, when you can.
[00:13:09] Eman Ismail: Hm, I love that you stopped at that point because the next thing that I wanted to ask the I’ve been wondering is what does your team look like today?
[00:13:19] Vivian Kaye: It’s actually very lean and it’s always been lean. So it’s myself and two others. And then, you know, I’ve got a team of other people that I outsource to. So like say my email marketing or the paid ads, that’s all outsourced. But it’s really lean where it’s myself, who, who manages like the high level stuff. And then I have a one employee that all they do is deal with customer service. And then other employees that all they do is deal with the fulfillment and they work together in tandem to, you know, they go back and forth, and that sort of thing. And then of course, I’m always all hands on deck when, when things, you know, are about to hit the fan, right.
[00:13:52] Eman Ismail: Yeah. I, I love that because I feel like there’s so much pressure on us to grow, grow, grow, grow, grow a team, have as many people as possible working for you, delegate, outsource to, you know, the absolute max. What made you kind of stay away from that advice and, and keep things lean?
[00:14:08] Vivian Kaye: Oh, I actually fell victim to that advice. You know, so I would say, you know, in about 2017, I was like, oh, I was trying to build my team, like get a bunch of people on board and make more money in Nevada. But I found that I didn’t like it.
Like I, you know, one of the things I always say, I didn’t start the business to make money. It’s not the reason why I started the business. I started the business to solve my own problem. I started the business to give confidence to Black women, no matter where they are in the world to show up as themselves in the world.
And so when it started to get all Roe ass and CAC and ROI and all these acronyms, I was just like, you know what, I don’t, I really I’m really not enjoying it at this point. And so then I made the decision to just sort of scale back because I didn’t need to be a three kajillion dollar company. I was happy with where it was.
[00:15:02] Eman Ismail: Wow. Okay. So I, I don’t know if you’ve heard of Paul Jarvis. but he wrote a book called Company of One, and he
[00:15:07] Vivian Kaye: Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes, Yes. yes, yes.
Yes. And you know what? It was actually after reading that book that made me feel okay. I’m I’m right now I feel, and this is how I want to keep it. Absolutely.
[00:15:20] Eman Ismail: Yes. Yes. Because as, as an email strategist and a copywriter with the advice that I’m always getting is grow an agency, grow an agency. That’s the best way to make money. That’s the best way to make more money faster. You know, grow, grow, grow. And I, I’m not interested in creating an agency and I never have been, I thought, is there something wrong with me?
And then I read that book and thought, ha, there are other people like me and what you just spoke about why you said I don’t need $3 million a year. You know, your happy with just enough. You have defined for yourself what enough is, and you’re happy with that. And I can’t imagine how that must change your whole outlook on life.
[00:16:01] Vivian Kaye: It changed everything because even, you know, when I started the business, I was, I noticed that I, I, I didn’t feel comfortable keeping up with the Joneses. And keeping up with all. Because obviously when I started my business, and this was back in 2012, 2013. So this was when everyone started creating like a lot of the big, the big businesses that you see now started back when I started.
Cause that’s when people started feeling comfortable putting their credit cards online. Right. And of course with that came the, you know, the stunting. You know, the I’ve got the Gucci purse and the Lambo and the five bedroom house, and I never felt comfortable flexing like that. And so what I realized is a lot of these companies where a lot of these founders were doing all this stuff and flexing, but they were unhappy.
And I was like, I didn’t like this again. I didn’t start the business to make money. I started it so I could give Black women confidence. I started it so that I could stay home and raise my son. So I just got back to my why. I, I went all the way back to my why and why did I start this? And that’s what I focused on.
I mean, if money is your why then you know, good for you, but not good for me. And, I don’t think anyone should feel pressured to have to live that way if they don’t want to.
[00:17:15] Eman Ismail: Absolutely. Just yesterday, I was listening to you talking on the Being Boss episode, and you were talking about authenticity marketing. And at one point you said, bearing in mind that your amazingly successful business is a hair extensions business, you said hair is not my jam. I think of it as a means to an end. My real goal is to give Black women confidence to show up as they are in the world. So hair just so happens to be the means to that end. That to me is mind blowing. I think as business owners, we tend to get caught up in the day-to-day stuff. A lot of the time, we’re just trying to make, we just try to make as much money as possible, or we’re just trying to find the next client or when, you know, we’re just trying to survive till the next launch.
How important is it for us to have a mission that just penetrates everything we do?
[00:18:04] Vivian Kaye: Because honestly, there’s going to be days when, if you think, oh, make the most money is it’s not gonna be enough. And even when you get that money, then what? You’re burnt out. You’re tired. You’re miserable. Right. And so it’s, it’s super important to have a why. Why are you doing this? Why are you putting yourself through this unnecessary headache and stress when you could just go work a normal nine to five and leave, you know, leave the nine to five at the nine to five and go home. Right. And so. It’s super important to know what your why is, what your vision is, what your, your mission is, what your values are. Because that’s the only thing that’s going to carry you through when the going gets tough.
Wow. I love that you ended on that because now I’m going to move on to what I invited you here for.
[00:18:55] Eman Ismail: Vivian, what is the mistake that made you?
[00:19:02] Vivian Kaye: The mistake that made me was putting my vision in someone else’s hand. And that was a $12,000 mistake.
[00:19:13] Eman Ismail: Okay, back up, take me back to the beginning of how did this situation come about?
[00:19:18] Vivian Kaye: Well, first of all, let me rephrase that. It wasn’t a mistake. It was a lesson. There was no such thing as mistakes. They’re all lessons really.
so I just gone through a beautiful rebrand. And, this is I’m talking about logo, you know, and all that. And so the company that had done that for me, had done a terrific job. And of course, with the new logo, I thought, oh, well I need a new, I need to do photography for a new website, you know, the whole works. And so then what I did was I thought, okay, well, this company did such a great job with their logo and it was in their wheelhouse to do this photography thing, so why don’t I just let them do it? Which was fine.
[00:19:55] Vivian Kaye: So we sat down, we met, I talked about what I liked and what I didn’t like and how I wanted it to feel and the authenticity that I wanted to come through in the photography. And then I just sort of was hands off on it. And so I let them manage everything. Everything seemed to be going fine until the day of the shoot.
I walk into the studio and they’re playing this really chill music. I, if you ever seen anything that I’ve done, I’m not a chill music sort of person, unless I’m going to sleep. And so already the vibe was off. And then the photographer was off. And then when I was seeing the pictures, I just was not feeling it, but I was like, it’s okay. I was worried about the sunk cost. So I just said, okay, it’s okay. We can push through this We can push through this. And then, you know, we also did video that day. Again, sunk costs. We, they can do, we can do this. Let’s just push through, push through. And it wasn’t until I got the final edits, I saw the photos and I was just like, oh my gosh, it’s okay. We can save this. It’s okay. We can, I can fix it. Like, you know, we’ll make it work. We’ll make it work. But when I saw the videos, I just said, okay, no. No, Nope, Nope, Nope, Nope, Nope, Nope, Nope.
And so I had spent $12,000 for that shoot and I threw everything out.
Didn’t use a single photo and had to reshoot the whole thing. Hired a new photographer, new creative director,you know, put everything, did everything all over again. Spent another $10,000 to do it. And it’s what you see on the website today.
[00:21:29] Eman Ismail: Which is amazing.
[00:21:32] Vivian Kaye: I’m so glad I did it so glad I did it.
[00:21:35] Eman Ismail: So wait, did you fire the first round of people and hire a whole new group of people? Or did you give them a second chance and
[00:21:41] Vivian Kaye: Nope. I fired the first and hired and hired someone else.
[00:21:45] Eman Ismail: Okay. So I have to ask because you’re a very confident person, and this is what comes across in your brand. And this is why your branding is so amazing. It really encapsulates you. And if you listen to, you got to go and visit Vivian’s website and just check out this brand in that we’re talking about. You don’t strike me as the type of person to keep things in where it’s really important for you not to. So I’m really interested in the fact that there were multiple points in this process where you were unhappy, but you were willing to just kind of swallow that unhappiness. And I have to ask, why?
[00:22:20] Vivian Kaye: One, I was worried about the sunk costs. And two, it was a bit of that imposter syndrome. So here I was, you know, I am uneducated. I have managed to build this million dollar business. Not entirely sure how I did it. I mean, I know how I did it, but you know, not entirely sure how I did it. And there were these professional people telling me that this was what it should look like.
And I was like, Um, but you know, my gut was like, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. But you know, for some reason, you know, and it’s also one of the lessons that I learned and I’ll probably talk about later, but I shouldn’t have trusted them with my vision. They don’t have my eyes, they don’t have my footprint. They don’t know what I did and had to go through in order to build this business. They didn’t have my vision.
And so it was a huge learning lesson for me because, you know, at some point I was just like, well, screw it. Okay, Vivian, you may not have a degree in marketing or photography or cinema or whatever the case may be, but you do know your customer. You do know your business because you built it from scratch. You know exactly what these women want to see because you are that customer. It’s not like I’m selling water bottles. No, I’m selling a very personal product that I started because I had the problem and I found the solution. So I can speak to it. I understand the customer because I got high on my own supply.
And so it was really just a learning. It was just a period of growth. So it had, I had to trust myself because I thought, okay, well I’d built one business. It was a fluke. I built a second business, Vivian. It can’t be a fluke. So you obviously know something. So I had to give myself more credit than I was giving myself.
[00:24:06] Eman Ismail: Quick thing as an email expert, I’ve analyzed hundreds of emails and I see a lot of business owners making the same expensive mistakes in that email strategy and copy. I want to help you stay away from those mistakes, which is why I’ve created the Email Rules, my free 35 minute email class that teaches you how to boost your conversions and sales through email without making any costly mistakes.
One business owner Bundy called it the best email class she’s ever taken. Thank you, Andy. Want to get your hands on it. It’s totally free. Head over to emancopyco.com/emailrules, or hit the link in the show notes, and you’ll get instant access. Oh, and if you’re not into writing your own emails and you’d rather me strategize and write your emails for you, get in touch. Let’s make it happen.
You just touched on imposter syndrome and here it kind of stemmed from the fact that you didn’t finish college. Right? So you started college and left college. How many times has this cropped up for you and your business? Is it rare that it crops up when you feel something? Or.
[00:25:08] Vivian Kaye: Oh, it crops up all the time. It crops up all the time. But not so much anymore because I’m about to do 10 years in the business. I obviously know what I’m doing. But, you know, there’s been ups and downs and rounds and rounds, right? Like I’m not even going to hesitate where the last two years have been absolute craptastic.
The business hasn’t been doing as well, but because we were going through a global pandemic and who’s been through a global pandemic before. Nobody! Right. And so it’s been, it’s been a huge learning curve, but again, you have to trust yourself because no one knows your baby the way you do.
People can give advice. It’s just like, you know, as a mother, you know, people can give you all the advice that they want. You can take some with a grain of salt. You can completely ignore some. And then there’s some you take to heart. But you know your baby better than anyone else does. You know what’s best for it. And even if you think you know what’s best for it, at least you tried, even if you fail.
[00:26:06] Eman Ismail: Absolutely. As a service provider, I’m someone who I love that whole providing an amazing experience for my clients and that kind of thing. I’m super interested to know what the conversation was between you and the service provider, where you told them they have just completely missed the spot and you hate everything.
[00:26:25] Vivian Kaye: Yeah, well, when I told them that they come, they completely missed the spot and everything. And they said, well, you should have said something while it was happening.
[00:26:32] Eman Ismail: Oh.
[00:26:33] Vivian Kaye: And then I said, you know what? You’re right. I should have. Thank you for that very hard lesson.
[00:26:40] Eman Ismail: Oh.
[00:26:40] Vivian Kaye: And you know what? She was complete. And I, she was, I couldn’t fault her for saying it like that. Like she was right. I should have said something.
And the funny thing was, I remember during the shoot, like, I want to say halfway through the shoot, I got tired of the music. So I changed the music and then I tried to give some creative direction. But at that point, the models were tired, you know, and everything had just, you know, it was just, I tried my best to save it. But again, a very expensive lesson.
[00:27:07] Eman Ismail: So now that you had pretty bad experience with this first round of people, you’ve hired a new group of people. How was that process different from the first time around?
So the process was different because what I realized was the second person that I hired truly understood what I was trying to accomplish. And it showed when they were showing me like, you know, like the mood board. And it’s something, it’s something I should’ve clued into. Cause I think I was, I was so busy trying to be sophisticated, that I had forgotten to be authentic.
[00:27:46] Eman Ismail: Oh wait. Okay. What does that mean? What does that mean?
[00:27:49] Vivian Kaye: So then I thought, okay, because I’m a million dollar business, I should look like a million dollar business. Right. Whereas with the second one, it was like, okay, why don’t we, why don’t we just look like we started from the bottom now we’re here. Like so we can still show the roots and where we started, but it can still be, it doesn’t have to look like a million bucks. Like it can look like a million bucks, but it doesn’t have to be snooty. Or, you know, inauthentic. And so I wanted girls who, when they laughed, you could see it. And they love their hair and they, they understood the assignment. And, you know, another thing was I was very hands off with the first group, whereas this one, I was very hands-on because it was like, okay no. I need to really explain what I want to see. I want to see it three times. I want to make sure, yes that’s the color. This is this and that is that. I had to make sure it was happening. Cause I wasn’t about to spend another $10,000 trying to fix a second mistake.
[00:28:50] Eman Ismail: Wow. Okay. And so now they present you with your new branding, your photos, I’m presuming you got under the video. How did you feel about the new ones that you got?
[00:28:58] Vivian Kaye: I was like, yes, this is it. This is it. Like I remember crying because it felt like everything that was in my head was finally on the screen. It finally looked like, like if you’d seen the progression of my business and you see what the result of that was, it was like, yes, like that for me is success. That’s my million dollar business. It doesn’t have to look like, you know, a high nose, on a Rodeo Drive sort of business. It doesn’t have to. Because I’m not even that type of person. So why was I even trying to wear a dress that doesn’t even fit?
Let’s talk about the next part of this. How did this mistake make you? How did it change you as a person, as a business owner, and how you went on to do business and be the person you are today?
[00:29:46] Vivian Kaye: I learned to trust myself. To trust that. And I find as women we undervalue our intuition. Our gut tells us so many things. And, and if you’re, if you’re sort of unaware of what, you know, what it means to follow your gut, your body knows. Like, you know, like when someone says something, your body immediately either falls into it or falls back from it.
So I always say, whenever you want it, you need to make a decision. Just ask yourself the question out loud and you’ll immediately react to it. And so what I learned is to listen to that intuition that just because I don’t, and that’s the thing, because I was pitting, you know, reason against my heart, right? Like not having that education. So therefore that person must know better against what I felt in my heart, which is what it knows. It feels. Because this is where the business came from anyways. And so I just had to learn to trust myself. And so now it’s like, if I say nope, nope, not doing it. Nope. Then I know Vivian, like, I don’t go back over to that. Well, you know what, obviously there’s some times I’m like, did I make the right decision? Should I, but then I’m like, no, you know what? That’s a decision I’ve made and I’m sticking to it. And whether it’s a good one, it’s a good one or a bad one. That’s what I felt at the time. And that’s the decision I made. That’s it.
So I’m not going to cry over spilled milk, right. I’m just going to trust myself that I, I, made a decision based off of what I knew and what I felt and to trust that. And if I, if it fails, well, then you know what it’s okay. At least I tried.
Nothing wrong with trying, right?
[00:31:19] Eman Ismail: Absolutely. And I think that goes back to what you said earlier, which is what this entire podcast is based on. This idea that there are no such thing as mistakes. Everything is a lesson learned. We’ve just got to keep learning these lessons.
[00:31:30] Vivian Kaye: Yep. Everything happens for a reason.
[00:31:33] Eman Ismail: Absolutely. And you have this phrase, what would Chad do? What does what would Chad do mean? And how was it born?
[00:31:43] Vivian Kaye: Well, what would Chad do is really about, it’s more of an energy. It’s more of a, a mood, an attitude, a mindset. That’s what it is. So what would Chad do is meant to help you to immediately dismiss those self-limiting beliefs that pop into your head.
So for example, Vivian, you know you don’t know what you’re talking about because you don’t have a college education. Well, what would Chad do? Chad? Who’s probably, you know, let’s just say Chad, did you know most likely Chad, even if he didn’t finish school, you think that would stop him from doing all the mediocre things he’s doing? No, it doesn’t, as we’ve seen. And so really what Chad is, is really to help me to, to push myself out of my comfort zone because I think, well, what would a white guy do if he was in my position? He’d do it. You know, because they say, even with women, we could have four out of the five qualifications and we still won’t apply for that job.
But Chad could be 100% unqualified and he goes for it, right? Like, look at, look at the leaders, look at half the leaders of the world and former prime ministers and presidents that have done all these big things and they have no business doing it. But they’re doing it anyways because they have the audacity, right?
So really what we women are missing is that audacity. So what we need to do is we need to marry our expertise because we know what we’re doing. We know what we’re talking about. We just need to trust ourselves. So we need to match. We need to marry that, that expertise with that confidence, that audacity to go out in the world and do the big things that we need to do.
So what would Chad do came about after I wanted to apply for a grant. And I was like, oh, but I don’t have the, I don’t know how to fill it out. And dah, dah, dah. And so then I remember asking myself, but all of a sudden I was just like, well, what, what would Chad do? He would do it. Like, why, why shouldn’t I apply for this? And so then that’s how it was born. And I started saying It out loud and people were like, oh my God, you’re so brilliant.
[00:33:50] Eman Ismail: It is though. It really is. And I feel like we can all relate to that. And certainly because there are so many aspects to this, so many dimensions to this. So as a woman, as Black women, as, as mothers, you’re a single mother doing it by yourself. There’s so many different parts of this where statistically, you know, we’re being told one thing and we’re in this box over here and we have to do so much to, like you said, find the audacity. It takes so much more from us.
[00:34:18] Vivian Kaye: Yup. Yup.
I mean, this all really goes back to trusting your gut and trusting your instincts and almost taking the opportunities that life throws at you, especially the ones where, you know, you think one thing is going to happen, and something entirely different happens. And just you asking yourself, or encouraging yourself to have the audacity to do the thing that maybe you afraid of doing. I wonder, does that get easier as you’re in business longer?
[00:34:46] Vivian Kaye: audacity? Uh, yeah.It’s like a muscle.
[00:34:49] Eman Ismail: Okay.
[00:34:50] Vivian Kaye: Right. It’s like, you know, when you go to the gym, it’s like going to the gym, right? When you go to the gym, you get on the treadmill the first day you’re out of breath. but if you keep going every single day and every single day, you keep doing something a little audacious, whether that’s, you know, something audacious in your self care, something audacious in your career, something audacious, you know, in your joy, something like, you know, if you keep just doing these little sprinkling little bits of audacity in everything you do, next thing you know it’s like a reflex. It’s a reflex to be audacious. Right. Cause why not? If they can do it, if they can just, if you know, some people can just wake up one day and say, I’m going to do this. And they do it, why can’t I try it? Why can’t I do it? So I would say audacity is it’s a muscle.
Plus you need audacity to have any sort of success. It’s the child of success actually. So in order to get over to that success, that top tier of success, you got to have a whole lot of audacity because it’s not going to happen magically. So you have to take risks. You have to be bold. You have to be willing to do, to go against, you know, the, the grain. Because you know, audacity right now has this negative connotation. I challenge you to flip it on its head. It is not a negative thing. It can be a positive thing. It’s just what we’ve seen is, you know, mediocre people doing stupid things. That’s why, you know, we think audacity is a negative thing. But really it’s just the willingness to be bold. It’s a willingness to take risks. Just make your risks calculated. You don’t have to do it the way they do it, do it the way you would do it. And they don’t have to be, you know, leaps and bounds. They can just be small steps.
[00:36:28] Eman Ismail: Big small steps.
[00:36:30] Vivian Kaye: small steps. Because it all adds up. all adds up.
[00:36:35] Eman Ismail: When I look at your two businesses. Vivian’s decor, the wedding decor business, and then KinkyCurlyYaki. As a fan of niching, someone who loves a good niche, I noticed that both of them were very heavily niche. So with your wedding decor business, you only did the decor, so you will not, you know, managing the rest of the one you were not getting the cakes, the flowers, nothing. Your thing was decor.
[00:37:00] Vivian Kaye: Yup.
[00:37:01] Eman Ismail: And so when it came to KinkyCurlyYaki, your hair extension and weave business only serves Black women and a subset of Black women as well. So not just Black women that want weaves, but Black women that want weaves that look as natural as possible. So not the Nicki Minajes of the world. They want to look as natural as possible. That to me was fascinating because people are terrified of niching. How important do you think niching was to the success of both your businesses?
[00:37:29] Vivian Kaye: It’s, it’s the reason. If I had to name five reasons, that would be number one, niching and it’s, and it’s because niching is just so much easier. It’s so much easier to get to the audience. And it’s cheaper and it’s, you know, what you want to do is when you’re niching is you want your customer, when their customer finally finds you to say, I can’t believe you made a product just for me, because you’re speaking to a very specific group of people.
Whereas if you’re just selling hair extensions, you’re speaking to a very broad group of people. And when you’re speaking to everyone, you’re speaking to.
[00:38:07] Eman Ismail: Yeah.
[00:38:07] Vivian Kaye: Right. So when you niche down now, and I understand it can be scary, but think of niching as, you know, getting your foot in the door, right? So you get your foot in the door with a very specific product. Now you’re in with that very specific group of people. You’re speaking their language, you understand what their problems are. You speak to their pain points. They will go and tell the world all about you, which is exactly what happened with KinkyCurlyYaki. It’s exactly what happened with, with Vivian’s Decor.
I served the very specific group of people. And then those very specific group of people went and told their very specific, same groups of people, friends, family, whatever the case may be. And then that’s how I grew. That’s how you would grow your business organically right through niching.
And then once you get your foot in the door, then you can, you could either go deeper into the niche or you can go wider into the niche. So like, say for KinkyCurlyYaki, I just went wider. I first started with, I think it was, with five textures and then, no, it was six textures. And then what I did was instead of adding, you know, body wave and Malaysia and all that stuff, I just went deeper. So it was like, okay. I started out with Wes. Then I went to clip-ins. Then I went to wigs. Then I went, you see? So I went deeper in the niche. But you could also go wider.
But the deeper you go, the more you’re known for it. Like, let’s just say, like I said, people say whenever they want kinky textured hair, they say they want that kinky curly Yaki, just like when people want to Google stuff, they say Google stuff.
They don’t say I’m going to go do a web search. They say Google, because Google at the time got really good at search. Same thing with Amazon. You can’t, here’s the thing. Amazon started out by selling books. They got really, really good at selling books and figured out the best way to ship books across the country and how fast and all that. And then they said, hmm, we’ve got our foot in the door with books. Imagine what we could do with whatever the second product that they decided to sell was. And now look at them.
So niching is a sure fire way to get your foot in the door of success. Of the house of success. Because that way you’re speaking to a very specific group of people and it’s cheaper to talk to them. It is easier to talk to them because you understand their needs. You can speak exactly to what their pain points are. And you don’t have much competition when you niche. So how can you, how can you niche your current product? Okay. Or even if you’re just starting a business, how can you find a niche to start with, first of all, look at your everyday problems. So I, I started both my businesses because I had, I had a problem. And when I went looking for the solution, I couldn’t find it.
And you don’t have to reinvent the wheel. So even if it’s like, okay, I want to sell hair extensions. I remember actually I have a very specific example. I had one girl reach out to me and say she also sells hair extensions, but she’s, she sells kinky textured hair extensions, but you know, she’s not getting traction at it I went and looked at her website and I saw that she sold wigs. And I said, you know what girl, you’re selling the exact same textures that I do. But I actually, at a certain point I stopped selling wigs. So I said, you sell wigs. If I were you, I would only sell kinky textured wigs because you can speak to it better than I can.
Did she do it? She didn’t. So that’s the thing, you can’t be afraid to niche. You can’t. What, what, if anything, what do you lose by not do what do you lose by not doing it everything, but what do you lose by doing it? You could gain everything. You have a 50, you have a 50% better chance of succeeding if you niche, then if you don’t.
[00:41:36] Eman Ismail: I have to say it that’s been my experience. So I was a generalist copywriter to begin with. And I was terrified of niching. It was email that I loved, and I knew that that was my strength, but I was scared. I was really scared that I would lose clients. I wouldn’t be able to, you know, find work. And then what happened was I did it and my business boomed. My business boomed from the year that I really, decided to home in on, on email strategy and copy. That was it. That was the beginning of, of everything. And it is everything is what you just said. You know, people know what I do, people know me for that. People say Eman, oh Eman. She does email. It’s so easy to remember. It’s so easy to just memorize and to tell the next person: Email. Eman. You know. I mean, I totally agree and that’s exactly what I saw. But I love that you’re here to say that because it’s a very touchy topic. It is. And I understand why people are scared.
I was scared. It took me a while.
[00:42:31] Vivian Kaye: It is. It is scary. It is scary. But, I mean, that’s the audacity, right? You gotta take the risk. You gotta take the risk and be willing to be bold in order for you to, to have that success. It’s it’s the fastest way to do it, to be honest.
[00:42:48] Eman Ismail: I totally agree.
And going back to the mistake that you shared Vivian, it feels like you have grown a lot since the person who, who made that, who made those choices.
Looking back, what did you learn and what do you want others to learn from your experience around how you dealt with that situation?
[00:43:08] Vivian Kaye: So what I learned from that experience was, one, to trust myself. I certainly know way more than I give myself credit for.And two, to not be afraid to have that vision and not to trust other, you can’t trust other people with that vision. Especially when it’s your vision, right? So it’s not like you’re copying someone else and you’re just working off of someone else’s blueprint. No, this is your own blueprint. So, you shouldn’t be afraid to take bold risks to have audacity. To try new things. To niche it down. To, to, to go on this platform and to do these things. Like that’s what I’ve learned. Like I learned you can’t you got to trust yourself and no one else has your vision but you, so only you can execute it the way you do.
You are the secret sauce. You are the magic pill. You are all those things because nobody can do it the way you can. You were the only person with your unique set of abilities, your, your expertise, your past, like everything that makes up you, you were the only person that has that. So rely on that. Like use that to your advantage.
So that’s what I did. I used the fact that I was a college dropout and immigrant, a single mother, and I managed to build this seven figure business without knowing what the hell I was doing. And I use that to my advantage. That’s the audacity. Just take every bit of audacity and just ring it out, ring it out.
[00:44:42] Eman Ismail: I love it.
And you know what that reminds me of, when I first started in business, I was given advice to not put photos of myself on my website and online on my social media and all that stuff, because people won’t want to work with someone who looks like you.
So, yeah. Right, right, right.
[00:45:01] Vivian Kaye: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:45:02] Eman Ismail: And so my thing was, I mean, I thought about it for a little bit, and then I was like, you know, if someone doesn’t want to work with me because of the way I look, I don’t want to work with you. And I certainly don’t want your money.
[00:45:12] Vivian Kaye: with Exactly. Exactly. You can’t be for everyone. And if you are then really why.
[00:45:20] Eman Ismail: Exactly. And you know what happened? I did put pictures of myself on my social media and on my website and people remember me because I look different from everybody else in the room.
And it’s become, it’s become something that is positive for me. I mean, I always knew it wasn’t negative, but for those people that put that little thought in my
[00:45:42] Vivian Kaye: putting their insecurities on you.
[00:45:44] Eman Ismail: Right.
I mean, people remember me and I love that.
Vivian, this has been absolutely amazing. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me. You, I already told you that you were among the top people that I wanted to talk to because of you, your branding, the way you are. I heard you speak at the Being Boss conference a couple of years ago, and I’ve never forgotten you.
[00:46:03] Vivian Kaye: Oh, you.
[00:46:05] Eman Ismail: Thank you, really. How can people find you if they want to stay connected?
[00:46:11] Vivian Kaye: I am an absolute pleasure to follow on Instagram.
[00:46:15] Eman Ismail: Yeah, she is. I can attest to that.
[00:46:17] Vivian Kaye: On Instagram. It’s Vivian Kaye as @itsviviankaye. So you can find me there. You can find me on all the major platforms, same name, @itsviviankaye. And, and on my website, viviankaye.com.
[00:46:32] Eman Ismail: Thank you, Vivian.
[00:46:33] Vivian Kaye: You are absolutely welcome. Thank you for having me.
[00:46:35] Eman Ismail: Vivian story is as incredible as she is. As a Black immigrant, a woman, a college dropout, a single mother. She had everything working against her, and yet she still came out on top. Vivian is an example of what’s possible when you trust yourself, when you show up for yourself, when you believe in yourself and when you have the audacity to ask, why not me?
Because she had the courage to stand up for her own vision to let go of the $12,000 she’d invested in her branding project. And to accept that she just have to start all over again. She went on to create a brand eyes truly on. It’s so magnetic that she’s attracted brand partnerships with the likes of Porsche, Shopify, and American Express, which has taken her businesses to levels of success that not even she imagined for herself.
So I leave you with this. The next time you’re unsure of yourself or about to second guess yourself, or about to count yourself out of an amazing opportunity, ask yourself what would Chad do? And then do that.
You’re listening to Mistakes That Made Me. I’m Eman Ismail. And if you loved this episode, take a screenshot, post it on Instagram and tell everyone you know that this is the podcast to listen to. And tag me @emancopyco so we can say hi. And so I can share your post.
You can find the links to everything I’ve mentioned today in the show notes.
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