Episode #3: The Fear of Visibility
Have you ever shied away from the spotlight, thinking it might help your business rather than hurt it?
Black women and visibly Muslim women have to decide how they want to show up for their businesses — all while navigating the complex expectations and stereotypes that come along with their identities.
My guest is Jennifer Ogunyemi, the founder of Sisters in Business, an organisation that’s dedicated to inspiring, connecting, and elevating Muslim women.
Jennifer is a mentor to countless Muslim women. But before her business took off, she struggled with how to show up visibly in her business.
In fact, while her business was taking off, no one knew that a black woman was behind it – which meant she missed on opportunities and the chance to get recognitionfor her hard work. Now, she encourages Muslim women to show up for themselves.
Listen to the Episode
Show notes
Links from this episode:
Jennifer on IG: @sisters.in.business
If you loved this episode, take a screenshot, post it on Instagram and tell everyone you know that this is the podcast to listen to. Don’t forget to tag me! @emancopyco.
And if you’re interested in working with me, visit emancopyco.com/contact.
-
Eman Ismail: [00:00:00] When you're searching for love in the modern world, a dating app might be one of the first things you try. But finding a potential partner isn't as simple as swiping left or right when you're a Muslim, who's decided not to get involved in the dating scene.
A lot of Muslims don't date in the traditional sense of the word.
Instead, we do Bridgeton style courtships with nearby chaperones, keeping a friendly eye. And when we found our person, we usually want to skip straight to marriage, which understandably might feel a little scary to someone who's not used to all the marriage talk.
So, how do you find a partner when you're not open to traditional dating?
Enter Muzz, a dating and marriage app that lets Muslims find their perfect partner while also respecting their faith. [00:01:00] This isn't an ad stay with me. This app was made for Muslims by Muslims, and it lets you filter by sex, how many times a day a person prays, and even lets you invite a chaperone into your conversations.
Startups like Muzz aren't a rarity anymore. The Muslim business scene is booming and we're seeing more Muslims than ever building products, software and services that cater to both Muslims and non-Muslims in sectors like Islamic finance, food, fashion, cosmetics, Muslim friendly travel, and media and recreation.
And according to research conducted by the Muslim lifestyle expo, women make up at least 50% of the Muslim startup community. And that was in 2016. At the time, the figure was that to rise. So you can only imagine what it is today.
But the thing is being a female Muslim business owner has its own unique set of challenges. The world doesn't always make things easy for us.
Jennifer Ogunyemi: I'm just going to be real with you. I'm a Black [00:02:00] Muslim woman. I'm living on a double-edged. Right. Even if I took off my religion, I'm still a Black woman and the views of what people have of Black women, it's quite damaging.
Eman Ismail: On today's show, I'm speaking to Jennifer Ogunyemi, founder of Sisters in Business about how her lack of self-esteem and fear of being discriminated against as a black head scarf wearing Muslim woman, stopped her from being visible online and set her business back by at least two years.
Jennifer Ogunyemi: I remember having the conversation with my husband. I said to him, I need to show up. Now I need to let people know who I am, not just for them, but also for myself. I need to be okay with who I am.
Eman Ismail: Welcome to Mistakes That Made Me, the podcast that asks extraordinary business owners to share their biggest business mistake. So you know what not to [00:03:00] do on your road to success. My name's Eman Ismail, and I'm an email, strategist and copywriter for online business owners and e-commerce brands. I'm a podcast lover, a pizza binger, a proud mama of two, and I have this radical idea that if maybe us business owners were a little less guarded and a lot more open about the mistakes we've made, we could help each other grow a business that brings us a more joy and less regret.
Jennifer, thank you so much for joining me. I am so excited to have you here.
Jennifer Ogunyemi: Oh, gosh. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Tell us a bit about who you are and what you do.
So as the name says, my name is Jennifer Ogunyemi,mum to four. And what do I do? I'm going to say it like this. I think it's the easiest way to say it. I am the founder of the largest organization that ensures that Muslim women is seen, heard and understood. And the reason why I say it like that is because I think it's the simplest way for me to say how much we [00:04:00] amplify, advocate, and help women show up in their businesses.
But since the pandemic has also pivoted to that mental health and emotional wellbeing. So actually I'm now seeing that we're much more of a hub, rather than just an organization that deals with entrepreneurship. So yeah, the thing to say now is, you know, we work really hard to ensure that Muslim women are seen, heard, and understood.
Eman Ismail: I mean, I don't know of an organization that does something for Muslim women in the business sphere that is as important as yours. And I've been following you for a few years now. And so I've seen it grow and grow and grow, and I've seen how much it means to you. I was going to say your members, but people who aren't members as well, who would just watching you, you know, put Muslim women in the spotlight and also how Muslim women feel like there is a place for them in the business world.
I think the work that you do is so important.
Jennifer Ogunyemi: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that is one of the main reasons why [00:05:00] I do what I do. You know, entrepreneurship is just one arm of it, but actually a lot of my roots and a lot of what I do is the constant amplifying of our voices and making sure that we're seen in spaces we're heard in spaces. You know, whether it's maternity, whether it's mental health, just the fact that we have somebody who can articulate that can understand, and the fact that people can also resonate with is also really important to me. So as much as it means to our members, as much as it means to other people that are watching, it's something that I'm super passionate about. And it's something that means so much to me because I have girls are going to grow up and the same conversation that we're having now, I do not want them to be having that in the next 10 to 15 years.
Eman Ismail: Oh, yeah, I absolutely feel that. And for, I mean, the listeners cannot see us. So just to describe you and me for those who have never seen me, we are both Black Muslim women from the UK. You're of a Nigerian background. And [00:06:00] so the work that you do is close to your heart, it affects you. What was it that made you want to start Sisters in Business? What was the motivation behind it?
Jennifer Ogunyemi: I failed in business. I had a business before this and it completely failed. And I thought that business was going to be the ticket to me getting out of NHS because I was working for NHS. I was working for NHS for the past 15, 16 years. And I thought that was going to be my ticket out. Not to say that I don't love NHS, but...
Eman Ismail: I. Can I just interrupt and say NHS, for anyone who's not in the UK, is the National Health Service. So you were a midwife, right?
Jennifer Ogunyemi: Yes. And then career then went into from midwifery to proceed a consultancy to do law. To then my very last thing was, which was GP management. And, you know, so I've gone through like such wide spectrum of NHS. I just had enough. And I was like, okay, I need something to get me out.
I think as any woman would relate to, when you're on maternity leave, you have [00:07:00] all these ideas that flow through your mind. That's not going to take you back to work. And that's exactly what happened. And then I pressed launch and nothing happened. I didn't sell one thing, and I thought. I thought I done everything right, right? Cause you know, you got the YouTube, got the podcast. They tell you how to launch and all these stuff. And it didn't happen for me. So I was like, okay well, what am I going to do then? Because this didn't work. And I still got stock left. I've got no money left. Okay, so what am I going to do?
So I after that three weeks of being over emotional about everything, I thought to myself, okay. I'm going to go back to what I love, which is sisterhood. And which is something that's a big part of our religion in making sure that we're all united and we're all together. The community, the village basis of what community is. I love that so much. I'm going to combine that with my second love, which is event planning.
So I've done it. And I just remember my first event that I put up and no one bought a ticket and I was like, oh no. Trauma all over again. Like it's like [00:08:00] triggering all these things of what happened previously. And I just reworked it and I'll put it back out. And I think after one sold out event, it went to 10, it went to 15, it went to 30. I think, where we are sitting today is I've got 50 something sold out events.
Eman Ismail: Wow. 50 something. Wow. So what are these events? I know, but I want to make sure that the listener knows what are these events.
Jennifer Ogunyemi: So these events are networking events. So creating a space for the women to be able to come feel. I don't want to say feel safe because I think creating a safe space is, is something that there isn't. You know, there's always something or someone listening. But I wanted to create a space where they can come and really be able to have a connection with each other on the basis of business.
Because beforehand, all the connections that you get with another Muslim woman is based on your religion. Right? And based on the fact that, you know, we met in a talk, or in a lecture, or something. But I wanted us to meet on the [00:09:00] basis of business and what that meant for us in that space as businesswomen.
And so we have networking events, which creates that social inclusion part of it. Then we have the courses and workshops, which means that we're really able to have targeted educative pieces for the women, for them to be able to go away and to implement in their businesses. So there's like, it's two-pronged, but I really love it because I feel like, you know, there are so many different entrepreneurial hubs that offer all sorts of courses and all sorts of workshops.
But one thing that I found is that none of them really tailor or really understand what my restrictions are as a Muslim woman. And that isthe gap that I wanted to fill.
Eman Ismail: I'm glad you ended on that because I, I want to ask what are those, those barriers, those struggles that you, we, we experience as Muslim women in the business world? Because you know, there'll be people here thinking, and I've had [00:10:00] conversations with these people who were like, is there a really hard though for Muslim women? Is it really, or are you just creating a situation out of nothing? Because everyone's used to working with women who wear, you know, had scarves or hijabs now. Like it's not even a thing. So what are these barriers that we face in the business world?
Jennifer Ogunyemi: So I think first of all, are we comfortable with working with women that cover the way that we do, with our headscarves and hijabs? Are we used to it yet? Absolutely not. Because there isn't enough of us that are doing it. So that's the first thing. Second of all, the reason why I do the work that I do is because whenever you see a statistic of a normal woman, and I'm going to say normal for now, probably not the right word to use, but of a normal woman, whether it's in business, whether it's maternity, whether it's mental health. That statistic you can guarantee is almost double for a Muslim woman or a woman of faith that openly wears her faith is almost [00:11:00] double.
So for entrepreneurship, for instance, I was reading a article years ago and it said that, you know, women in entrepreneurship fail within the first three years. And that's normal because, you know, there's responsibilities and confidence and all of that plays a part into it.
But for a woman of faith, it jumped up to almost 95%. So I was like, okay, let me delve into that. And why is it so high and there are so many things. And that comes to me answering your question. Confidence. Low self-esteem. Responsibilities. Majority of women that come into entrepreneurship are already, mothers and wives, right? Or grandmothers.
So responsibilities, not knowing how to navigate the business world because of the restrictions that we have in our religion, that some people choose to exercise and what some people don't choose to exercise. There's also this barrier of access. It is not easy for a woman of faith to access particular [00:12:00] services that first of all does not cater to her, but secondly, that she does not see that another woman like her has accessed that service. And that's a big thing. Representation is a huge thing when we talking about services and accessing them. Because it's really easy for a woman to feel unsafe in a situation very, very quickly.
And so a combination of all these things is what has created that statistic to be so high. And has anyone addressed it? Absolutely not because they feel as if our voices are not to be heard, number one. But number two, actually, Muslim women are only meant to be at home and having babies. That's what the common thoughts and the themes are.
But, you know, over the past five years of doing Sisters in Business, one by one we're dismantling that by showing and, you know, empowering the empowered already. By amplifying voices, by creating a funnel of education that will make sure that her [00:13:00] confidence is on hundred. That her level of the knowledge of her business is on hundred. And just making sure that we're able to support all the way in her business to the point where she feels like, okay guys, I don't need you to support me no more. I can go off and do this thing by myself.
Eman Ismail: And again, again, what you're doing is so important. I have a good example of something that I'm struggling with at the moment, actually. So as we, if anyone who kind of needs to hear what this kind of struggle might be in real time. I have started to be invited to live events again, which is great. We've had the pandemic for years and now we want to see people face to face. One of the issues that arises for me as a Muslim woman is that I, don't want to be in certain spaces, because it, it compromises my faith values and beliefs. Right. So, when events are put on, on they are, for example, at a bar [00:14:00] or in a pub, I, kind of automatically exclude it.
I still don't know how to deal with this because what I don't want to do is put my, personal, beliefs on anyone else by saying, you know, like, can we change the venue? Which actually, I don't think as an, I don't think as an insane request, I don't think if it was put the right way and be like, hey, could we perhaps like have this in a restaurant? Or, you know, maybe that kind of thing. I don't think that's an insane request. However, I am just that person, like, I don't even want to, like, I don't even want to bring that to the host. I don't even want to bring that kind of conversation. So then I find myself. excluded from certain things where I am just not able to be involved and I would love to be. But I can't be in certain situations.
So that is one example. So when you find yourself asking, you know, why are there not more people of X background in this space? You kinda got to ask yourself, If you're asking that question, have I created a space where they feel comfortable entering? Because [00:15:00] sometimes we're just not able to, or we don't, we don't feel like we can.
Eman Ismail: And I do want to say disclaimer, something that you said, Jennifer, which is, you know, Some people are fine with that. So Muslims are fine with that and that's up to them, but this is up to me and this is what I choose for myself. So. I don't want to, I don't want to kind of create, this idea and everyone's had to, or listening that this is what a Muslim woman will say, do think, believe we are all individuals with our own, you know, beliefs on a ways that we practice our shad faith.
So there's that, but there's a good example. So I am kind of in this position where I'm like, you know, I really, I would really love to go to this event, but don't feel like I'm able to, and it's a shame and you know, people be like, well, why. Why didn't she call him? That's why I didn't come.
Jennifer Ogunyemi: Yeah. And you know, what, what you're talking about is such a common theme. You know, I get invited to events all the time, as you know, Yes, I will speak up and I will say, unfortunately, I can't [00:16:00] come because of X, Y, and Z. Because not that I'm expecting you to change that particular venue for this time, but what it creates is that thought process of next time. What is it we could do to make sure that she could come if they really wanted me to be there?
And that's the thing, I think it's a level of really first of all being confident in knowing and saying to yourself that actually, I know you guys want me to come, but I can't come and I'm not going to come because this is, this will be compromised in my belief and my faith, which is, you know, which is personal to me.
But secondly, I'll just like you to think about where you are hosting these things, because actually. I want to say that I was in, I was hosting a round table discussion ages ago. I think it was last year. And it just happened to be that there was another woman and she was a Christian lady, English lady. And she said to me, she said, I don't even celebrate Christmas. And I module dropped because my assumption, coming from a Christian background was [00:17:00] that every English person celebrated Christmas. There's no way that you don't celebrate Christmas unless you're from a different faith. And she said, I'm not from a different faith. I just don't celebrate Christmas.
So again, it goes to show you that it's not just for a particular group that actually we have to start thinking inclusively and diverse ways for everyone. Because not everyone, again, it goes back to that assumptions of what people have of each other. Everyone's okay to go into a pub, everyone's okay to go into a club. And that's fine because you're okay with it as the host. But for me and the other guests who may be coming, we may not be okay with that.
The point of what I'm saying is if you are in those spaces and you do want to be in those spaces, they're not going to change until you bring it to their attention because unfortunately it's ignorance.
You know, that's how I like to say it it's ignorance. So definitely speak up and, you know, just say that, you know, it looks like an amazing event, but I can't come because of X, Y, and Z, but the next time you do host the, and you do host another event, I'd be more than happy to attend.
Eman Ismail: That's so [00:18:00] interesting. I think it definitely has to do with confidence.
It's so interesting because there's so many things that I feel totally confident saying, like I'm in a space now where I can totally say, hey, I'd love to come to that event, but I'm going to be bringing my kids. So, how does that feel?
Eman Ismail: I was actually invited to speak at a conference where they were going to pay well, they are going to pay for my, for my accommodation. And, my thing was, you know, what I would love to come, but I'm also going to need you to pay for my kids' accommodation too, because they're coming. They coming..
So I'm definitely kind of getting more and more confident with my requests, with how I am, responding to certain requests. But this one is one that I still need to still need to work on. So, as I'm so interested in talking to you about this, and I love that again, we have so many similarities, but, and this is something that I definitely want to get across.
We're not the same person. We don't have exactly the same experiences. Our, our faith group is not homogenous, which is why, again, I say, we're not here trying to have a discussion on behalf of every Muslim woman in the [00:19:00] world, we're having a discussion between Jennifer and Eman.
So I want to move on to a mistake, Jennifer, because I see you do a lot of great things.
So I was super interested to hear what your mistake was going to be. Let's do that.
Jennifer,
Jennifer Ogunyemi: Yes.
Eman Ismail: What is the mistake that made you?
Jennifer Ogunyemi: Not showing up early enough in my business. I didn't, I didn't do it early enough. And what do I mean by that? I mean visibly showing up, letting people know who is behind the business. And just letting people know. Forget the people, but just letting myself know that it's okay to show up, you know, as who I am and, you know, anyone that scores for social media would see all sorts of all types of beauty, all standards of beauty. And I didn't think I fit into any of those standards. And [00:20:00] that's what kept me back from showing up in my business, in the beginning.
Eman Ismail: What was it that stopped you? What was it that made you not want to show who was behind the business?
Jennifer Ogunyemi: I'm just going to, I'm just going to be real with you. I'm a Black Muslim woman. I'm living on a double-edged. Right. Even if I took off my religion, I'm still a Black woman and the views of what people have of Black women, it's quite damaging. Right. And it's hard because as a woman full stop trying to navigate the business world, then having the pressures of being a Black woman on top of that, then take the pressure of being a Muslim woman and what people expect of you and your religion, and put that all on top. All those things scared me.
[00:21:00] And I remember having the conversation with my husband. I said to him, I need to show up. Now I need to let people know who I am, not just for them, but also for myself. I need to be okay with who I am.
I suffered from body dysmorphic issues for years. I have never ever seen myself in this beauty or I'm beautiful or any of that. I never did. And so showing up was also saying to myself that no matter what I look like, or no matter what people thought of me, this is who I am, and I'm a really good business woman, and that should not stand in the way of me showing up. Not only for myself, but for my children, for my legacy, but also for the community that I'm hoping to stand in and advocate for.
Eman Ismail: I love that.
And I love that you're so honest.
And I think I want to make a distinction because this [00:22:00] might be a controversial distinction, but I'm going to make it anyway. I think that there is a different experiencefor a woman who is Muslim and a woman who is visibly Muslim as in you look at her and can instantly see that she is Muslim. Because it's so funny because that's the whole point of us wearing what we wear in the first place is so that people can recognize us as Muslim women. So we, we, we want that. And then we, we get that. And then we have to deal with the consequences of that.
And I do want to say that I'm not disregarding the experience of, a Muslim woman who is, not visibly Muslim and a lot of the time as well they will be in a position where they are ethnic minorities in that community. So they damn well have to deal with issues. And a lot of the time, they're from cultures anyway, where people will assume they're Muslim, whether or not they're wearing a headscarf or whatever else.
And so just a reminder for the people that cannot see us, that we're both wearing headscarves and we both [00:23:00] wear what is,known as an abaya, or long dresses, to basically cover our butterly, womanly shape. So, I. I feel you, I feel you so hard. it hurts. And I actually had, I had a similar conversation with myself.
Eman Ismail: It's why I actually first named my business initially Inkhouse. I mean, I've rebranded now. So it's Eman Copy Co., but it was Ink House because I didn't want anyone to know that it was Eman behind it. So that's how much that's how much I feel you. I was advised actually not to put photos up of myself, et cetera, et cetera, because people won't want to buy from me. People won't want to do business with you. So that was a whole thing in itself. And I would love to know. How did you run your business while people didn't know that it was you behind it? I didn't see your face. How did you run it?
Jennifer Ogunyemi: I done all the normal things, like, instead of saying I said we, instead of saying me, I said they. You know, I always try to deflect away from [00:24:00] the fact that it was me behind it. Right. So I'd never would touch on anything personal about me or personal about how I failed in business. I would leave that alone.
But people, if you turned up to the events, you'd know who it is. Right. You'd know that it's me. You can see, but then I'll stay away from the pictures. I'll do all of that. but you know, it just, what you just asked me, brought back a memory and I remember sitting down and writing the copy for the social media and doing all of that.
And I'm not great at that, by the way, like such a task. And I remember sitting there and I was like, when I don't say I, I'm doing myself a disservice. When I don't say me, and I say we or they, I'm doing myself a disservice. And so for a long time, people thought it was a south Asian sister behind it. A south Asian woman behind it, or they thought it was a group of people behind it.
So it started to affect me because. [00:25:00] Let me tell you running a business, you need validation somehow, somewhere along the line. If you run in that business and validation comes from what people think about your business, what they feel about your business and what they say about your business. I'm going to be completely honest. There's a lot of people that would go in and say, I don't need validation from people. No we don't. But actually validation is quite nice when you do get it right. And I couldn't be validated because people didn't know who I was.
So I'm here running the business behind the scenes. I'm setting up all these events. The very first event that I done, the woman walked down the stairs. She says, I'm looking for, for Jennifer said, that's me. She goes, oh, I thought you was going to be an Asian woman.
Eman Ismail: And I
just want to cut.
Jennifer Ogunyemi: go on.
Eman Ismail: Sorry, go ahead. No, you're you can see it hurts. It hurts. It hurts. It hurts. I have. Uh, I, this really bugs me, I really am. It's annoying me because for, I need to explain like the context behind this, this, [00:26:00] a, this misconception, and I will say amongst Muslims within the Muslim community that Black people cannot be Muslim.
All Black people are less of a less, less Muslim, less than, than anybody else. And it's so interesting because what I mean. You know, I'm going to say it. A lot of Muslims will be annoyed with me for saying this because there's this idea that we should keep issues within our community, within our community.
No, we damn shouldn't, especially, they don't affect you. Right. Let's talk about it and let's get it out in the open. I was bullied horrendously. I was tormented one of my earliest memories being tormented at school for being a Black Muslim by other Muslims.
Jennifer Ogunyemi: Yup.
Eman Ismail: Okay. And that is the lived experience of so many Black Muslims today, today. It's what, 30 years later, that is still the experience. And so it, the one, when you said that she had assumed that you were an Asian person, that [00:27:00] you were an Asian woman. really bugged me because a lot of the time that is the, that is the assumption and it's a rooted in racism and discrimination.
And you might think it, but it was a simple mistake. It was this, no, it's an assumption that's, uh, based in a racism and discrimination and let's not call it anything else.
But go ahead. Sorry, Jennifer. I had
Jennifer Ogunyemi: No, no, I know. Right. And we have to, say it because for years, like you said, we have always been the lesser of the community. Right. People. That's how people see us. And when she said that to me, it was in that moment that I knew I have to show up because at that time, when I started this as a business, there were no visibly black women, Muslim women, who were running businesses. Always behind the scenes. And I had to change that for myself. I had to change it. I had to change it. Why? Because actually [00:28:00] there is no shame in who I am in being a black Muslim woman running the business. As I said to you before, I do not have any issues with my abilities.
I know exactly my abilities, my values, and the skillset that I have. But more importantly, it shows me that for every other black Muslim woman that wanted to be visible, it had to start with me. And I remember when I put my first picture up and the response that it got, I just sat on my phone and I cried for a good couple of minutes because I was like, you guys don't know what it took for me to be able to choose this picture and put this picture up. You don't understand. Because what other people see, I don't see it. All I saw was overweight, ugly, you know all the negative things that comes to mind.
But then when I [00:29:00] started seeing the comments and the other black women that were like, we never knew there was, it was a black woman. We didn't know. That's when I started to think, okay, something has to change. And it all started with me.
And you know, that saying that charity begins at home, is exactly that. If we want to make change and we want it to be everlasting change, or we want to give value, but value that hits, right. It always has to be given of yourself. And so two years off the running sisters in business, You know, having all these awesome things happen or some things happening behind the scenes, as soon as I put myself out and I was visible, even more stuff started happening because of the courage that it took to be open and speak and, and to show that actually it's okay being who you are, running the business that you're running.
Eman Ismail: I I [00:30:00] absolutely love that. And I'm so glad that you had that moment where you, it sounds like it freed yourself. You'd freed yourself of everything that held you back from, from sharing who you are.
I'd love to know howdid this mistake make you and how did it create the Jennifer that we see today? And the business that you have today?
Jennifer Ogunyemi: Okay. So there's many levels to this. On the basic level, it made me appreciate the beauty that I have. Number one. Okay. It made me realize that actually my business is not dependent on how beautiful I am or how ugly I am. It's not dependent on those things. It depends on me and my abilities.
Secondly, it made me because I saw so many other women that wanted to be [00:31:00] visible, but they were afraid to be visible. So then I got catapulted into this coaching position of actually a lot of the work that we started to do was building up confidence in order for the woman to become visible. Because there's a different level that something happens to your business. When you start to become visible, anyone that wasn't usable for, it becomes visible. There's something that happens to your business when you become visible. And so I got catapulted in this coaching role and I thought, anyway, on social media, you will never ever find me calling myself a coach. Never cause there's so many out there.
Eman Ismail: I'm the same.
Jennifer Ogunyemi: But it did, you know, I think I put a post out the other day and it was then I was like, okay, because people don't understand. So I was like, okay, I'm a business coach. And I think actually you won't see me screaming it anywhere. If you know that I'm a coach, you know that I'm a coach. Right. And it's not to say that I'm not, I'm a bloody good coach. I know that hands down. But, it catapulted me into this role and I [00:32:00] thought there are so many women who want to be visible, how am I gonna help them do that? It unlocked this motivational part of me. And this is where I think a lot of people know me for, for the motivational, the talks that I gave or the inspirational talks that I give.
Why? Because I understand what it means to be something that you want more happy with, wanted to change it so badly because you want to fit in so badly. But then unlocking a part of me that was like, no! I am enough the way that I am in order to run this business, in order to be who I am as a friend, as a wife, as a mom, as an all those other things. I am enough.
There's power in that. It's not every day that a Muslim woman wakes up in the morning and thinks I'm enough. We have societal stereotypes to deal with. We have cultural and traditional stereotypes to deal with. [00:33:00] We have religious stereotypes to deal with. We have so many layers of what people expect from us that we get lost in it all.
Now being lost in that all or say means that actually, even if you did want to shop, you don't know how to show up. And it's that part that made me. Because I knew in that moment when I did show up, this is how I want to show up. I didn't help in other women knowing how to show up. It unlocked the part of my business that meant that I went from just hosting events to now have add in multiple streams of income in order for me to be able to create a bigger business.
Eman Ismail: Quick thing as an email expert, I've analyzed hundreds of emails and I see a lot of business owners making the same expensive mistakes in that email strategy. And copy. I want to help you stay away from those mistakes, [00:34:00] which is why I've created the email rules, my free 35 minute email class that teaches you how to boost your conversions and sales through email without making any costly mistakes.
One business owner called says it's the best email class she's ever taken. Thank you. Bessemer. Want to get your. It's totally free. Head over to eman. Copy code.com/email rules, or hit the link in the show notes and you'll get instant access. Oh. And if you're not into writing your own emails and you'd rather me strategize and write your emails for you, get in touch.
Let's make it happen.
What is your biggest stream of revenue in your business? Where do you make most money?
Jennifer Ogunyemi: Right now, it's our awards. We host these yearly awards, awards, evenings, where we award Muslim women, you know, who have done amazing stuff in their business. And as much as it's the most stressful, but it's the biggest revenue where we can take in between 20 to 30 K for the year. Yeah.
Eman Ismail: So how are you making that money? Are [00:35:00] people paying to nominate themselves?
Jennifer Ogunyemi: So we've removed the financial barriers for the nominees. That was my biggest thing. No one should have to pay to be recognized. Nobody. So our revenue comes from ticket sales and from our sponsorships. It all comes from that. Because, if anyone goes to my LinkedIn, the first thing that I put, the first paragraph that I put is we are tired of asking spaces at other people's tables.
I created a table for us to be able to thrive on. And so when you come to our table, it's our table. Meaning, we're not, not gonna have to ask permission. Meaning, we're telling you and advising you to support these kinds of women because not only is it looking good for you and your diversity quotas or your inclusivity quotas, but it also means that actually you are effected and you are [00:36:00] raising the aspirations of women who didn't think that they would be where they are right now.
And so, yeah, so that's like our biggest revenue, but after that will be the networking events where we host them once every two months.
And again, we rely on sponsorships, but also ticket sales to be able to thrive, on my staff and the business and doing all the other stuff that we can do.
Eman Ismail: Your staff, what does your team look like?
Jennifer Ogunyemi: Ooh, my team. Let me tell you first of all shout out to my team, shout
out to my team here because my team yet I'm telling you people see the elegance of systems in business, right? They see the elegance of the talks that I deliver. They see it all, but what you don't see is the entanglement that goes on beforehand.
My team is made up of. My operations manager is Pakistani woman. I'm a social media manager is a Moroccan woman. Varying ages. And they're special to me because they see the [00:37:00] big vision without even having to understand it.
Eman Ismail: Mm.
Jennifer Ogunyemi: And that's important to me. In order for you to be able to do what you're doing to me as the head, as the CEO of everything, my vision is quite huge, right? Now it takes time and energy for me to keep explaining to people what this vision is.
Eman Ismail: Oh God. Tell me about it. Yeah.
Jennifer Ogunyemi: So when you have people that work for you and they see the vision without even you having to explain it without even understanding it. They keepers. And so shout out to my team because my team do amazing work behind the scenes and even the ones that don't like to be shouted out, you know, the quiet ones that don't like to be shouted out, but I have to, because they are also part of my learning curve.
The fact that I'm managing people, and I'm paying people, and sometimes I pay people late and sometimes, you know, sometimes I say to my team that look this month, I don't know where the money is coming from, but I'm going to pay you. But it's going to be a little bit [00:38:00] late, the fact that they can understand that, they mean so much to me.
And they're also women that look like me. You know, they look like me, they're Muslim women. They women that want to do well in business. They are women who wants to be seen. They they're women who wants to be heard and understood. And again, intentionally I wanted to work with people that look like me. It was intentional that I wanted Muslim women on the team. Because in order for you to be the most valuable, it has to come from people that understand what those barriers are without me having to go into deep in explaining it because it's tiresome.
Eman Ismail: Oh yeah, absolutely.I love for people to have empathy with what we're talking about, and I appreciate it, but I think also those people who feel that empathy will be the first to say that they will, they can never really understand it. Like they can have,they can try their best to understand it. But of course you won't understand it unless it's a [00:39:00] lived experience. So I totally understand. I do want to say that your community is open to people who aren't Muslim as well. Right?
Jennifer Ogunyemi: Absolutely. Absolutely. It's open to everyone. It is open to everyone. There's no discrimination. And I think this is what people get wrong. I think we look like a religious group, but actually we're just a group of women who, who have shared the same faith. And I have to say that because we've had many comments, but you guys are a religious group. No.
We have a group of women who look the same because we, we connect, you know, by faith, but also by business. But also it's open to everyone just as long as you understand that, me and you, no matter what faith it is that we follow, we can have some of the same barriers in business.
Jennifer Ogunyemi: So as long as you understand that, are you coming with an open mind and you connect with me, you, you know, people say like, connect. I say heart connect. Because there's something special that happens when you can connect by heart and not by [00:40:00] mind. And that means that you're willing to let go of all the assumptions that you had about me. You're willing to let go of all the stereotypes that you had about me.
And you're willing to connect with me on a level. That's a lot deeper that than it being transactional. You want to connect with me because it's a relational connection and that for me, outweighs any other connection ever that anyone can have.
Eman Ismail: Jennifer. There's so much that I could ask you. There's so much that I want to keep you here for and just keep asking you, but I'm going to have to let you go. Unfortunately, I can hear your kids in the background. And one of the questions that I, I still wanted to ask, you talking about having sponsors and about sponsors being a big part of your revenue stream? So when you've made yourself visible in your business, not only did it skyrocket your business, not only were you able to create, you know, the impact that you wanted to create, the team that you wanted to, but you also are able to attract sponsors. How did that happen?
Jennifer Ogunyemi: Oh, gosh. So let me just, first of all, [00:41:00] let me just tell you. We knocked on sponsor's doors three, four years ago. And they all told me I was too small. I'm too new. They don't know who I am, so go away. Right. And that's just me being completely honest with you because there's something that people need to understand.
Like I said to you, a lot of people that are going to probably connect with me now, you're seeing some of the end results of things. And I don't want people to think that it was such a simple process because it completely wasn't. It was hard. But with the sponsorships that we have, they came about because I just demonstrated the value of what it means to our community, to have what we have.
I was able to demonstrate that working with someone like me, who is a professional, who does have principles, who is not just, you know, because I feel like some of the time. And I'm going to be honest with you. A lot of our sponsors have come from the Muslim community. And so they already have this assumption of us as women that we're not as professional, we're not as principled. [00:42:00] I know. And we are.
In fact, I am even more because of that fact. And so the sponsors that we have today, they're amazing people and they understand the work that goes into what we do. They see the value, they see how it affects the women when the women are at the events or, you know, when the women are on the zooms and they're talking and, you know, doing all of that.
So I am actually quite privileged to be able to work with sponsors. But it does comewith its problems. It does come with this problem. I like to say that not all business is good business. There were times I've said no to so many because we don't align. You're not principled enough. Communication is massive to me. If you don't communicate with, I lock off, like I switch off.
So there's so many things that I've had to say no to. But at the same time, the things that we have said yes to, have been amazing partnerships. They have been, you know, great [00:43:00] people happy to give and they do not want to dictate. And that for me is super special because actually no business can come and speak into another person's business and dictate what should happen yeah, so I just, I want to say that having a sponsors are amazing and it's hard work. And, you know, it requires so much patience and all of that, but on the other hand, we are still are, we're still at the very beginning of our sponsorship journey.
I think this year we've, we've probably raised the most capital in sponsorships this year. You know, it's been hard work, but I wouldn't change it for anything because the results that come from that, I'm not able to put into words.
Eman Ismail: Thank you for sharing that. Through the mistake that you shared with us, not being visible early enough in your business, what did you learn and what do you want others to learn from your experience?
Jennifer Ogunyemi: I learned that I am my own inspiration and motivation. I learned [00:44:00] that I don't always have to have it right. I learned that it's okay to make mistakes. But actually the biggest learning is understanding that I am more than enough for who I am and what I do. And if one thing that anyone should learn from me, it should be that no matter who you are, you have a story, you have a journey and that should not be dismissed for anything.
So as much as we say, the big stars are our inspiration and their own motivations, it should always start with you. Because someone would look at you tomorrow and call you their inspiration and their motivation. So if there's anything that anyone wants to learn from me is that. That we should stop leaning into looking into other people for inspiration, motivation, but lean in and look into yourself. Because you clearly have it.
Eman Ismail: Thank you so much for sharing everything that you shared and for being so [00:45:00] open and honest about your experiences. I think a lot of people, whether or not they can relate to our experience, will benefit so much from this conversation.
I want to end on asking you where can people find you if they want to stay connected?
Jennifer Ogunyemi: Oh, gosh, I live on so many sites, but you can find me actively on Instagram, which is Sisters in Business. Just find the big yellow circle and that is us. You can connect with me on LinkedIn and if you just want to tap into my thoughts and some of, you know, the feelings that I have, I tend to spill them out on my Twitter page as well as my personal Instagram page, which is Jennifer Ogunyemi.
Eman Ismail: Thank you, Jennifer. It's been amazing having you.
Jennifer Ogunyemi: Thank you so much, Eman. It is an absolute pleasure, honestly, it really is. And thank you for allowing me again, to be able to speak into people that are going to listen to this and to be able to inspire and motivate, which is what I'm all about. So thank you.
Eman Ismail: I was [00:46:00] excited, but also a little nervous about putting out this conversation because it's so rooted in identity, racism and discrimination. All important topics, but let's be honest. Not everyone wants to have these conversations. Not everyone is open to listening to these conversations.
Even so, I think it's important we talk about it. There's no way you can ask a black Muslim woman like Jennifer or me about her experience as a business owner, without identity coming up. Hope you either learnt something new and were able to walk in Jennifer's shoes for a short while, or that you, yourself felt seen, understood and represented.
Because representation matters. That's why 50% of the guests I've invited onto this podcast of female black business owners. As much as I love podcasts, I'm tired of seeing so few people who look like me, guests than on them. We're [00:47:00] here. And we have a lot of great stuff to say most of which has nothing to do with race and identity.
So don't limit us to those topics. Jennifer's story is a lesson in the power of community. I mean, her entire business is based on community and the notion of women supporting women. But it's also about self-love, self-acceptance, and the importance of being vulnerable enough to be you, even when you fear rejection.
The world's greatest expert in vulnerability Brene Brown says vulnerability is not winning or losing. It's having the courage to show up and be seen when we have no control over the outcome. Vulnerability is not weakness. It's our greatest measure of courage.
You're listening to Mistakes That Made Me. I'm Eman Ismail. And if you loved this episode, take a screenshot, post it on Instagram and tell everyone you know that this is the podcast to listen to. And tag me at @EmanCopyCo so we can say hi and so I can share your post.[00:48:00]
You can find the links to everything I've mentioned today in the show notes.
Next time on Mistakes That Made Me.
Claire: I was devastated. Absolutely humiliated. Not only that I had been fired, but that, like, this was all based on the one thing that I did in the business that like nobody else, nobody else was really doing. So it was horrifying.
